KK and lots of aces

Kluddeludde · #1 12-13-2004, 06:58 PM

Need some comments on this one. All streets except preflop actually. SB in this hand is very loose with mediocre aggression preflop. Postflop he tends to call alot, quite passive in other words. When he 3-bet preflop I put him on AA-TT, AKs, AKo. MP3 is also very loose and somewhat aggressive both pre- and postflop. His calls preflop really meant nothing.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 3 folds, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, 1 fold, UTG folds, MP3 calls, Hero caps, SB calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (14 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, MP3 bets, Hero calls, SB calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, MP3 bets, Hero calls, SB calls.

River: (11.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, MP3 checks, Hero bets, SB calls, MP3 folds.

Final Pot: 13.50 BB

Kludde

deacsoft · #2 12-13-2004, 07:14 PM

I raise the flop. If someone has an ace with a pot that large they'll probably let you know with a re-raise. And you may have a shot at picking up a redraw to the nut flush on the turn.

Harv72b · #3 12-13-2004, 07:30 PM

You must raise this board whenever possible. Don't give your opponents a cheap run at the flush draw or at filling out full houses with their own (almost certainly lower)pockets. A raise on the turn might even force SB out if he's holding KK as well and decides that either you or MP3 must have an ace.

chesspain · #4 12-13-2004, 09:00 PM

Preflop: Standard

Flop: I think calling here is fine. Since SB 3-bet PF yet shows "mediocre aggression," he is either way ahead of you with an ace (which he could easily slowplay here), or he is way behind with JJ/QQ. Since he does not have QJs, he is not a flush threat, and essentially no threat to overtake you if he is behind, although he may well call down with his dominated pair. Consequently, I would just call.

Turn: I think calling here is fine as well, for the same reasons above. Essentially, SB is either pulling the super slowplay with an A, or he is passively calling down with his underpair (since he didn't 3-bet PF and call the flop with K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]). I would just call MP3's bet again, since he's not folding a flush draw, and calling allows us to see if SB will checkraise.

River: SB would have to be incredibly weak-tight or incredibly stupid to go for the checkraise here with AK, but it looks like he's definately going to call down with his underpair. Although MP3 could have just been scared into submission with his possible ace, the overlay from SB's almost certain call makes this an easy bet (and easy fold to a checkraise from either player).

Consequently...well played!

chesspain · #5 12-13-2004, 09:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You must raise this board whenever possible. Don't give your opponents a cheap run at the flush draw or at filling out full houses with their own (almost certainly lower)pockets.

[/ QUOTE ]

SB doesn't have a flush draw and MP3 isn't folding his possible flush draw. And with respect to underpairs, you never want to make a move in order to force someone to fold a two-outer.

[ QUOTE ]
A raise on the turn might even force SB out if he's holding KK as well and decides that either you or MP3 must have an ace.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising for the purpose of trying to fold out an extremely unlikely mirror pair of kings seems rather nonsensical.

spamuell · #6 12-13-2004, 09:23 PM

I would have played it the same way. I don't like raising anywhere because you might make a hand drawing very slim fold, and I'm sure as hell not folding to a single bet anywhere.

chesspain · #7 12-13-2004, 09:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I would have played it the same way. I don't like raising anywhere because you might make a hand drawing very slim fold, and I'm sure as hell not folding to a single bet anywhere.

[/ QUOTE ]

Spam,

You felt a need to present an abridged version of my initial reply? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

DeezNutz3 · #8 12-13-2004, 09:27 PM

I like all streets.

jayheaps · #9 12-13-2004, 10:17 PM

you need to raise the flop. Mostly likely, this would make this a heads up hand. After that, it is very read dependant. If you think AK, then check-call to the river. if not lead the turn.

Harv72b · #10 12-13-2004, 10:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
SB doesn't have a flush draw and MP3 isn't folding his possible flush draw. And with respect to underpairs, you never want to make a move in order to force someone to fold a two-outer.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to try and force either out, but to make them pay for their draws, especially the flush draw who will pay for the priviledge. Plus, his description of SB includes "tends to call alot" postflop, which leads me to believe that SB will cold call 2 bets after the flop with his own pocket pair, especially after he 3bet preflop with it. As for MP3, he limped and then coldcalled 2 raises preflop, then called again on the cap. If that doesn't scream suited broadway, I don't know what does. I think by playing this hand so passively, he's inviting SB to raise on a later street with his lower pockets, in which case what does Hero do with his KK?

[ QUOTE ]
Raising for the purpose of trying to fold out an extremely unlikely mirror pair of kings seems rather nonsensical.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm obviously speaking with the clarity of hindsight that Hero didn't have at the time, but the way this hand played out I would not be overly suprised if SB was on KK as well. Regardless, that's just one possible outcome of what I think would be a good play here in raising.

One more time, look at the way things developed preflop. MP3 limped second in, which probably rules out almost any A hand, especially for a "fairly aggressive" player. I have to believe that Hero is ahead of MP3, although the flush draw does worry me. SB 3-bet his raise, which probably does mean AK or high pockets. If it's AK, the failure to c/r the flop is really bewildering, as MP3 and Hero had already committed one bet to the pot & almost certainly had the pot odds to stay in for one more. That leaves high pockets, all of which Hero is either ahead of or tied with.

I think this is a case where Hero has to trust his reads & be aggressive, especially against two players who appear very likely to call to the river. Call on the flop, maybe, but raise the turn.