top set and still not very happy

mosta · #1 12-03-2004, 07:24 PM

I disliked pretty much everything I did in this hand from the flop on, but I keep going over it and can't decide what the exact right way to play it is (and it is kind of a dangerous all the way through).

online 15-30. loose, not highly aggressive, occasionally weird. black Kings UTG. I limp them (I've had so little to play this session that my rare venture opening a pot seems to have better than a 75% chance of not being called). UTG+1 raises. MP and button cold-call. I 3-bet, utg+1 instantly caps. four to flop:

4c 7c 8c. I bet. Raise, cold call, cold call. I call. I'm not sure whether I'm scared of monsters, or slowplaying, but I don't like being so out of position with so much action behind me.

Kd. Okay, I guess I was slowplaying. I bet. now UTG+1 backs off and just calls, but MP comes to life with a raise, and button still cold calls. the other two of us just call.

Qs. check, check, MP bet. button fold. call, call. I won't say what happened yet.

I guess it's pretty simple. Really I should have check-raised the flop. But then when do I start getting concerned? If it's 3-bet? Having bet the flop, I should have 3-bet it. But then if it's capped, I'm not so happy. So I acted over-scared and over-strong at the same time by waiting to see what happened on the turn. So I should have check-raised the turn, but the wrong guy raised it... . I've got the big club, but not the ace, so I'm not that happy if the 4th club comes... . This hand is a mess. Maybe this is a situation that's been alluded to where I consistenlty under-represent the strength of my hand, and fail to account for the other players' perception of that, so I give them too much credit. also, 3 other players with the cold-calling on the flop is enough to keep me from dismissing the flopped flush.

TStoneMBD · #2 12-03-2004, 08:21 PM

i like betting the flop here opposed to checkraising to help drive out the other 2 players. you of course have to be sure the pf capper will raise it for you. after that i dont understand why you didnt reraise the turn. what are you worried about here a flopped straight? you missed quite a few bets.

TStoneMBD · #3 12-03-2004, 08:21 PM

i like betting the flop here opposed to checkraising to help drive out the other 2 players. you of course have to be sure the pf capper will raise it for you. after that i dont understand why you didnt reraise the turn. what are you worried about here a flopped straight or flush? you missed quite a few bets.

schroedy · #4 12-03-2004, 09:14 PM

Somewhere in the last week there is a thread titled "15/30 at the Bellagio playing like a girl?" with similar problems. I guess I'm just not there yet when I can see a couple of obvious ways my set can be beat to keep driving.

I will call it down, but I am not the driver (even with a set) after the uniform, three-straighted flop. Well, actually I will keep betting until they get frisky, but when they do, I wimp out.

DeucesUp · #5 12-03-2004, 10:00 PM

Oh man, you've got to do more than this on the turn, not only to protect your hand but for value. Even if you know somebody has the straight or the flush (and it isn't obvious they do) excluding the straight flush, you've got 11 outs to the nuts (including the A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]). The rest of the clubs give you 2nd nut flush. There is SO much value in raising here because you know a club is going to call, an OESD will probably call, AA and AK will probably call. Some of these hands are drawing dead. With this many people interested in the pot you're getting a big return on your money when you usually have the best hand and when not, have a bunch of outs to best hand.

I'd reraise the flop also, but in your hand its more important that you reraise the turn.

34TheTruth34 · #6 12-03-2004, 10:03 PM

I played an almost identical hand to this yesterday. It was a three-way pot and I had the red kings in the SB and three-bet preflop. The flop came something like 9-7-6 all spades. I bet and it was two more back to me on the flop and I capped. Turn was a beautiful red 2. I bet out and was raised and reraised. For some reason, I called even though I was convinced I was beat. River was the ace of hearts. I groaned and checked (and might have even folded to a bet). It got checked around. The other hands were two red jacks and T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and MHIG. The point is that the people in these games are way to aggressive on the flop and turn on draw-heavy boards. It's like everyone else is thinking "all he has is a high spade, I still have the best hand" and they just start throwing in bets.

Point is, in this game I think you have to play your overpair on the flop and three kings on the turn like it's the nuts. Especially in multiway pots, as all the extra bets you gain when you win outweigh the few you lose the times you are behind when you get outflopped.

Levi King · #7 12-03-2004, 10:04 PM

You might not be elated if the flop gets capped after you 3B like you know you should, but you can't be completely depressed with an overpair and the second nut flush draw. Assuming the As isn't out there, if the turned set didn't make your hand, it certainly gave you a better draw. That would be an easy turn re-raise for me as well - loads of PP 15 players are raising two pair and/or a pair with a strong re-draw. When the turn gets capped, then I hope for a paired board, but there's no way I'm getting away from top set.

But I play a high variance game...

TStoneMBD · #8 12-04-2004, 01:07 AM

id also like to point out that if someone flopped a flush, you have 17 outs to make the winner assuming all your outs are clean. even when youre behind, its only by a small amount, when they are behind its by huge. with a multiway pot if you even knew you were behind this may be worth a value raise.

mosta · #9 12-04-2004, 06:08 PM

fyi--MP who woke up on the turn had a set of 4s, no club. I got the the money.

kidpoker22 · #10 12-04-2004, 06:33 PM

I would've CR'd the flop hoping to get 3-bet by the pre-flop raiser. That would probably thin it out, though I suspect one of the cold callers flopped a set. When the turn came, you bet the PF raiser would call the cold caller would raise and you do whatever from there. That's just the way I imagine it going.

: )
KP22