Cold calling 2 raises KQs preflop

[TripleQ]

6th hand into the Sunday 200+15 tourney. Table has been loose passive, with 3-5 players seeing unraised flops.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (9 handed)

UTG+1 (t2510)
MP1 (t2560)
MP2 (t2600)
MP3 (t2440)
Hero (t2450)
Button (t2470)
SB (t2480)
BB (t2480)
UTG (t2660)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="CC3333">UTG raises to t40</font>, UTG+1 calls t40, MP1 calls t40, <font color="CC3333">MP2 raises to t60</font>, MP3 folds, Hero calls t60, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls t20, UTG+1 calls t20, MP1 calls t20.

No idea what the min raises represent, but I call based on position and the weakness implied by 2 min raises. Somewhat suspicious of the reraise by MP2.

Flop: (t330) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">UTG bets t120</font>, UTG+1 calls t120, MP1 calls t120, MP2 calls t120, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises to t360</font>,

Dream flop right? With the way the table has been playing I cannot put anyone on AA/KK/AK. I raise to see where I am/semi-bluff/free card play (if that's possible).

<font color="CC3333">UTG raises to t1200</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls t1080,

Now I know I'm behind... probably set or AA from UTG, doubt AK would reraise so strongly. But I'm also confused by MP2.. but pot odds right?

Hero calls t840.


Turn: (t4170) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">UTG bets t1400 (All-In)</font>, MP2 calls t1340 (All-In), Hero calls t1190 (All-In).

Pot odds again, but I hate putting in all my chips on a draw.. however, that "playing for first" bird keeps singing in my mind.

River: (t8100) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(3 players, 3 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t8100
<font color="green">Main Pot: t7740 (t7740), between MP2, Hero and UTG.</font>
<font color="green">Pot 2: t300 (t300), between MP2 and UTG.</font>
<font color="green">Pot 3: t60 (t60), returned to UTG.</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
UTG has 5h 6c (full house, fives full of sixes).
MP2 has Kh Ah (two pair, kings and fives).
Hero has Qd Kd (two pair, kings and fives).
Outcome: UTG wins t8100. </font>

I was very close to mucking KQs pre-flop, and normally would have at a tighter table, but the way the table was playing I figured I could have easily had the best hand... so do I re-re-raise KQs preflop??

Thanks for reading...

[adanthar]

This is why you fold KQs here and it isn't at all close.

[Lloyd]

I almost always throw away KQ when raised in front of me. There are just too many problems with that hand. Now if someone is being overly aggressive, raising way too much, I might play back. But you have to be very, very careful.

Even though you hit the flop decently, you still have to be careful. Most of the value from your hand comes from the fact that you have a strong flush draw in addition to having a pair. Your only a small dog to someone having AK (assuming the A is not a diamond in which case your about a 3-2 dog. But you really, really want to hit your flush.

On the flop, I think you either need to call or push. Your raise really didn't do anything at all. The pot was T720 and you only raised it to T360. Anybody who got a decent piece of the flop had odds to call. It's safe to say that you are behind here. AK is a possibility, and so is two pair with 65. A raise is probably not going to get AK or 65 to fold so I would have just called the 120 bet. After all, you were getting 6-1 odds. And you were getting 6-1 on the turn as well. With 12 outs I think you absolutley have to make the call.

But the point is, don't hesitate throwing away KQ pre-flop. It's just too dangerous.

[TripleQ]

Normally I do muck KQs to a raise, but I'm getting 4:1 in decent position and this is a hand with busting potential, right?

I found it very difficult to consider folding pre-flop with so many players in.. I suppose that might be a leak. I would have gotten myself into less trouble if I put in a strong raise preflop... would anyone actually advocate doing so though?

[Lloyd]

It sure is a busting hand. But this time, it busted you. I think the problem is that with the pre-flop action, it seemed like someone could potentially have AK. So KQs with two diamonds is going to take all your chips. If you hit the flush, great. If not, busted. Since it looks like you're committed to the pot, why not push on the flop when your probably not too far behind and have 12 outs twice.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
Normally I do muck KQs to a raise, but I'm getting 4:1 in decent position and this is a hand with busting potential, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your 4:1 is useless unless you flop exactly one of a)a pair and a draw, preferably TP, b)(top) 2 pair, or c)trips (which may or may not be good here because the action can't make you feel comfortable.)

And then, when you flopped almost perfectly, you got to put your chips in as only a small dog. Fabulous.

I would need something like 10:1 to call here and then I'd wind up cursing myself as I pushed on the flop.

[phixxx]

I don't see how you can call UTG's 1400 chip reraise....it's either push or fold in that situation. Your money is going in regardless if you call that and miss on 4th street, so why not put it all in on the flop and try getting as many hands to lay down as possible that are beating you?

ALSO, minraises by these idiots that play on these sites don't necessarily mean weakness.. I've moved in on players who have minraised me a numerous amount of times only to be shown AA and KK. Minraises don't mean weakness with these players.

And regardless of how these players play, if you can't put someone on AK with a raise and a reraise infront of you then there's something wrong possibly?

[fnurt]

I am going to disagree with some of the posters here because I think it is silly to fold this preflop, even if you need to proceed with extreme caution postflop. You're only putting 2% of your stack in the pot, and the implied odds are way too huge if you make two pair or better.

This flop is great for you - much better than naked top pair - but as a general rule, when you have a pair + flush draw, you want to get HEADS UP. It is not possible for a single player to have both a better made hand and a better flush draw than you, but against two opponents, a hand like yours can be way behind.

If you can get the pot heads up on the flop, you can play a flop like this very aggressively, since you are almost always a coin flip at worst, and with dead money in the pot plus your folding equity, a coinflip is +EV by a lot.

With this in mind, in the actual hand, my initial raise on the flop would have been bigger, to like T500 or 600, with the intent of getting at least one fold.

If one of them folds and the other one raises big, then it's decision time - you are likely in a coinflip situation, but you may or may not want to play for all your chips, depending on the tournament situation, notwithstanding the big overlay.

But when it comes back to you with a big reraise AND a call, I think it is an easy muck. Your hand is great heads up but it can be trash 3-handed. No way do you have the best made hand based on this action, and you have no folding equity, so the concept of not calling off all your chips on a draw should stop you before it's too late.

[Lloyd]

I definitely think pushing on the flop is the best move. Like I said, calling is an option and preferable to making the small raise you did. But pushing should narrow the field and give you a decent chance of winning. But I do think I'm going to call off my last chips in this situation.

[nightlyraver]

You happen to run into the 2-pair on the flop, however you must realize that you are actually AHEAD of the AK - imagine that - due to all of your outs. If it were later in the tourney, I would consider a push in this spot.