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#1
11-20-2004, 11:21 AM
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When to raise/call the river
I hold A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in the CO. MP2, MP3, and myself call, button folds, SB raises. BB folds - 4 players to the flop for 2 SB each
The flop comes 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]k [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Checks around to MP2 who bets, everyone calls (6BB) The turn is T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] - my (hopefully) happy card. Checks around to MP2 who once again bets, I call (in hindsight I think I should have raised NOW, comments on this play please), MP1 folds, MP2 calls, and I have a moment of clarity..... I should have raised in the first place! I now 3-bet (I bet that was a confusing move to SB!). All call. (15BB) River shows J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] SB bets, MP2 calls, Hero....... What does hero do here? I'm pretty sure I was ahead on the turn, but SB's river bet makes me wonder if he had a mad hand and was just playing horrible on the turn and flop. I chose the safe route - I called. Opinions? TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 
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#2
11-20-2004, 11:25 AM
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Re: When to raise/call the river
[ QUOTE ]
The turn is T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] - my (hopefully) happy card. Checks around to MP2 who once again bets, I call (in hindsight I think I should have raised NOW, comments on this play please) [/ QUOTE ] Start raising from the flop. Given you didn't, the turn is a definite raise, as is the river.
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#3
11-20-2004, 12:07 PM
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Re: When to raise/call the river
Raising the flop would not protect my hand against any 8, 2 pair, or most any flush draw. I am drawing to the second nut, and there are two players left to act. The correct action here is calling the flop with the hope of inducing the two opponents to call, and with the intention of raising the turn.
I got lucky on the turn raise, that I admit (just a dumb 4-tabling error, I should have raised in the first place but I am happy with the results). But why do you think I should have raised on the river???? TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
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#4
11-20-2004, 12:42 PM
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Re: When to raise/call the river
[ QUOTE ]
Raising the flop would not protect my hand against any 8, 2 pair, or most any flush draw. [/ QUOTE ] Raising will clean out you ace outs sometimes when someone folds A9. SO in a sense it will protect your hand, although I wouldn't think of this as a situation where you're trying to protect. [ QUOTE ] I am drawing to the second nut [/ QUOTE ] No you're not, there are a bunch of quads/boats that ebat you. [ QUOTE ] The correct action here is calling the flop with the hope of inducing the two opponents to call, and with the intention of raising the turn. [/ QUOTE ] No its not. You have a flush draw with an over card. That's a big hand, don't be concerned with keeping people in the hand, worry about getting bets in the pot. Also, planning to raise the turn doesn't make much sense unless you know you're gonna hit.
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#5
11-20-2004, 01:10 PM
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Re: When to raise/call the river
I'd raise the flop for a free card, to clean up possible A outs, and value if all call.
Then raise the turn the first time. SB's play is pretty strange, but yours is too, so it's hard to determine what he has. I would put in another raise on the river, but just call if he 3-bets. MP2 is along for the ride, so you're getting extra from him. If the SB had capped the turn, or if he check-3bet if you raised the first time, I may just call the river.
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#6
11-20-2004, 01:16 PM
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Re: When to raise/call the river
[ QUOTE ]
Raising the flop would not protect my hand against any 8, 2 pair, or most any flush draw. I am drawing to the second nut, and there are two players left to act. The correct action here is calling the flop with the hope of inducing the two opponents to call, and with the intention of raising the turn. [/ QUOTE ] You don't have a made hand that needs protecting - you have a good draw. You DEFINITELY won't get an 8 to fold cuz you're way behind to an 8. A K won't fold either, but a pocker pair might. You don't even want any flush draws to fold, you want them to call along and pay you off big when you hit the nut flush and they have a tiny flush. If someone has another draw, they're not folding it, so raise it up for value. I thought there was only 1 opponent (the SB) left to act and if he folds AQ/AJ that is GREAT for you. Even if there were 2 to act, you can't know if they're are calling or not. The reasons to raise far outweigh the chance that you may get 1 SB in the pot. Why are you planning on raising the turn, unless you someone know it're going to be a [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]?
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#8
11-20-2004, 01:22 PM
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Re: When to raise/call the river
[ QUOTE ]
Raising will clean out you ace outs sometimes when someone folds A9. SO in a sense it will protect your hand, although I wouldn't think of this as a situation where you're trying to protect. [/ QUOTE ] If I was the first player to act, I would have bet. If I was the last, or third player to act I would have raised. As the second player in this sandwich, I think calling was the best decision. You are right however about trying to get Ax to fold... it was a part of my consideration. [ QUOTE ] No you're not, there are a bunch of quads/boats that ebat you. [/ QUOTE ] Awwww... u know what I mean. I am drawing behind a boat (assuming that is the nut). Quads are possible, but should that even be a consideration without further evidence? I hate looking for monsters in my closet. [ QUOTE ] No its not. You have a flush draw with an over card. That's a big hand, don't be concerned with keeping people in the hand, worry about getting bets in the pot. Also, planning to raise the turn doesn't make much sense unless you know you're gonna hit. [/ QUOTE ] A flush draw that could be counterfitted by the 88 showing on the table. Raising represents to the week players that I am holding another 8, hence I would expect them to fold - loosing bets in the pot, not gaining bets as you so correctly pointed out. As for raising the turn, that is of course assuming the turn is a blank, another scare card, or a [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Thats a good portion of the unseen deck! Back to my main question.... river raise, or call? TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
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#9
11-20-2004, 01:25 PM
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Re: When to raise/call the river
[ QUOTE ]
Even if there were 2 to act, you can't know if they're are calling or not. The reasons to raise far outweigh the chance that you may get 1 SB in the pot. [/ QUOTE ] Ahh... I forgot to mention. They were both loose calling stations that will call to the river almost always if nobody shows agression. Thats an important part of the equasion. Raise - gain 1 small bet, the other two I cannot guarentee Call - probably gain 2 small bets, and the option to make more on the turn TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
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#10
11-20-2004, 01:28 PM
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Re: When to raise/call the river
[ QUOTE ]
I'd raise the flop for a free card, to clean up possible A outs, and value if all call. Then raise the turn the first time. [/ QUOTE ] Agreed. That was a multi-tabling error, I just got lucky. [ QUOTE ] SB's play is pretty strange, but yours is too, so it's hard to determine what he has. I would put in another raise on the river, but just call if he 3-bets. [/ QUOTE ] Yeah... thats what I thought I should have done. I think my river call was too conservitive. Next time - raise, and call if 3-bet on the river. TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
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