Was this betting for value on the river?

[Demana]

This is a hand a friend was in the other night:

Hero is dealt AKo in SB.

Read on villian is super loose / passive (plays EVERY hand, goes to the river if he has any part of the board)

Preflop: Fold, 4 limpers, CO (villian) calls, Button folds, Hero raises, BB folds, 5 callers

Flop: AJ2 rainbow
<font color="blue">7 players</font>

Hero bets, fold, call, call, fold, fold, villian calls

Turn: 5 (still rainbow)
<font color="blue">4 players</font>

Hero bets, fold, fold, villian calls

River: 9
<font color="blue">2 players</font>

Hero bets, villian raises, Hero calls


Should the Hero have bet the river, given that only a hand that can beat him would have called or raised (though an A weak kicker may pay him off too)?

I know this sounds weak tight, but I just read the section on value betting in TOP (or not betting because only a made hand will call) and I want to better understand the concept.

Does the concept refer to playing against a draw only?

btw - I'm cross posting in small stakes on the actual play of the hand.

[axioma]

its a clear cut bet for value on the river. hero will have the best hand here the vast majority of the time.

the raise i guess indicates 2 pair perhaps given the vilain is passive, although at the lower limmits the guy could have almost anything. still, a call is correct here.

[Demana]

To my second question then:

When do you bet the river for value versus checking?

My aggression has gotten the better of me in similar situations where someone to my right will hit two pair on an innocent looking card on the river and I will bet thinking that still have the best hand. They'll then raise me and I end up paying them off.

If the river is a scare card (completes the straight or flush that was possible on the flop), I go into check/call mode.

But what about when the river makes a backdoor flush or draw?
Cast aside the "monsters under the bed" thoughts and bet anyways?

[axioma]

what limmits are you playing? if its below say 10-20, i think you are giving your oponents far too much credit. sure, sometimes they will be on a legit draw and hit it on the river, but far more often it will be some fish calling you down with middle pair or some such.

you have to bet the river with your top pair &amp; decent kicker in almost all situations (except for say 4 flush/ straights), given that you were the aggressor throughout the hand.

[PassiveCaller]

The definition of a value bet will depend on the opponents you are betting against. Basically what range of hands do you expect to call the river bet. AK in a situation like this against most typical opposition will be a value bet. If you're opponents are playing better then you will have to adjust. In this situation there isn't many draws but a passive opponent could have hit a lot of the board that will not necessarily beat you that he will call with. Worse Aces, lower pairs, other pocket pairs. This is an easy bet.

[Louie Landale]

River betting concepts are much different than earlier round betting concepts.

The concept doesn't seem to apply to this situation. In this situation against the perfect loose-passive player you should bet almost every time, since there are SO many hands he can call with. Yes, these folks WILL call with the pair of 5s they made on the turn.

But if you are in a situation where he'll only call with an Ace or a hand better than yours ... then you should still bet, so long as checking won't induce a bluff. If he doesn't have an Ace and didn't raise the turn, the chances the river 9 hit him is pretty darn slim. If he does have an Ace then he'll call. I'm not sure how to calculate it but I'm sure betting is correct.

But lets change it; and you have QJ. Now you are still likely will win this pot but betting becomes much less attractive, since there ARE so few hands that a reasonable player can call you with that you can beat. In this case its not enough that "you will probably win", its "will you probably win when called".

River betting: Count the hands that will call you can beat and compare that to the hands that will call that beat you.

- Louie

PS: against this sort of player, toss your pair to the river raise.

This does NOT apply to the turn: then generally bet with the best hand regardless of whether or not you'll get called. This works because betting and getting no call is generally a GOOD thing unless you have an unbeatable hand. In fact, there are plenty of situations where you should bet on the turn with a reasonable-hand that cannot be the best hand when called; never-the-less you should bet.