AKs hand

BobboFitos · #1 09-16-2004, 05:55 PM

I swear I dont win much money with this hand. Comments on all streets appreciated.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (9 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown

MP1 ($205.15)
Hero ($109.30)
MP3 ($30)
CO ($41.40)
Button ($13)
SB ($171.70)
BB ($123.30)
UTG ($42.55)
UTG+1 ($92.50)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $1.
2 folds, MP1 calls $1, Hero raises to $6, 1 fold, CO (poster) calls $5, 1 fold, SB calls $5.50, 1 fold, MP1 folds.

Flop: ($20) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $15, CO calls $15, SB folds.

Turn: ($50) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $20.4, CO calls $20.40 (All-In).

River: ($90.80) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $90.80
Main Pot: $90.80, between Hero and CO. > Pot won by CO ($90.80).

Results in white below: 
Hero has Ad Kd (high card, ace).
CO has Qh Ts (one pair, queens).
Outcome: CO wins $90.80.

BobboFitos · #2 09-17-2004, 05:12 PM

*bump*
no commentary for my hand herr?

billyjex · #3 09-17-2004, 05:25 PM

$15 seems like too big of a bet on the flop with just a gut shot and two overcards. I've lost alot of money w/ AK in live NL games too, I just don't like it when I miss the flop. I would just check and see what the SB does, or make a smaller bet, you don't need to cost yourself that much money when you dont have anything.

aLittleFish · #4 09-17-2004, 05:51 PM

Well this isn't probably gonna be exactly what you want to hear, but its all I can offer. I would have played the hand exactly the same way. Normally if I miss the flop and I'll still bet out like you did. Then on the turn if its checked to me, I'll normally take a free card. If I have to act first, I check also, basically conceding the pot. If however, I pick up a flush draw like in this hand, I find myself firing that second bullet a lot of the time.

I think however we must both be playing the hand incorrectly, cause I'm not very successful with it suited either. Now if I compare my success with suited and unsuited, there's a large difference in profit with offsuit being much more profitable. I can only assume that is because I tend to be overly aggressive with the added flush draw. I can't be sure but I think its most likely chasing till the river when I should just be giving it up.

Sorry if I can't give you any more concrete analysis of the hand. To me it seems pretty straight forward, but I guess it may not be since we don't play it very profitably.

BobboFitos · #5 09-17-2004, 09:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry if I can't give you any more concrete analysis of the hand. To me it seems pretty straight forward, but I guess it may not be since we don't play it very profitably.

[/ QUOTE ]

EXACTLY! I asked my roommate here what he thought of the hand, and one friend who was online at the time, not because I think I played it poorly, but because this scenario happens all to often with AK/AKs. They both felt I played it fine. I genuinely am beginning to feel I lose money on the hand, for reasons such as this. I mean, AKs is a premium hand, and they say I'm playing it right... So how am I losing money!? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

As for the turn, I couldn't take a free card since he had position on me. However, if he checked to me on the turn, (If I had position) I still would've bet, simply because he had 20 dollars left, there was a small chance ace high was good, (as in he had TJ or Axs) and I wanted to give him every reason to fold.

I bet the turn for essentially the same reason: I could be ahead, but more importantly, I was going to call his last 20$ anyways because I now had odds to do so, (after I picked up my 4 flush) so I may as well give myself some folding equity.

The reason I brought up this hand is not that I believe I played it horribly - although one friend did agree with the initial poster here about not betting the flop - but because this seems like an all too common scenario for me when I have the slickeroo...

Perhaps I should throw some other hand histories of AK, not because I essentially play it wrong, but because I lose money with the hand. (ha...)

Thanks anyways little [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

muzungu · #6 09-17-2004, 10:03 PM

Bobbo-

Ok, here's the deal:

Just b/c you raised preflop, you don't always have to bet the flop! I think this is a big reason people lose $ with AK- they automatically bet the flop without stopping to think.

So here is how I think about it- you are going to hit your A or K on the flop roughly 1 in 3 times. When you hit, you are usually going to win. So if there are 5 people to the flop, before the flop comes I tell myself I am on a drawing hand. 5 people are playing, and i hit 1 time in 3. That's a good overlay. The other 2/3 of the time, well, I missed, someone else is probably going to win the pot, so I am not going to lose more $ trying to bluff at it.

Now, the fewer people, the more likely I am to try to pick it up. Headsup I usually (but not always) bet the flop. There is a decent chance I am winning anyway, and they might fold their small pair. With 3 people, I might bet half of the time, if not less.

Also important to think about is the texture of the flop. On a QJx, 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] flop, there is a good chance someone has a piece of something. I might bet a 744 rainbow flop, but I will definitely pass on this one. No need to throw more $ at it. Hopefully it will get checked around and the turn will come a T, or maybe you can bluff at it then, as if you were slowplaying your QQ (not that slowplaying top set here would be a good idea). Also note that if the turn is an A or K you shouldn't go overboard, as there is a decent chance someone has a str8 or 2 pair.

-muz

ChipLeader · #7 09-17-2004, 10:22 PM

Honestly, and im guessing ill catch some flack for this, AKs is way overplayed in my opinion. There are times where i will raise it, but i say i limp with it about 60% of the time. The reason is if there are many limpers before me, i dont wanna put in a huge bet (one big enough to get me heads up or 3 way) because 2 out of 3 times im going to miss, and even when i hit im not guarenteed a win. I used to play it similair to how you described but i have found that i make much more money if i limp in and bet the standard "top pair bet" on a hit flop. This way i keep Kx and Ax in the hand who will probably pay me more by calling all my bets than if i had knocked em out preflop. Also, when i miss, i lose 1 BB... so what? While AA, KK, and AKs are considered the "premium hands", AKs is a long ways off of AA and closer but still not KK. If you preflop bet AK heavy, youll get calls from PPs mostly, and youll have lost all suprise value. Also, you can still fold AK (belive it or not) when you feel you are beaten even after finding an A or K on the flop if you havent commited yourself preflop. Sets do happen, and bad aces cant still hit two pair...

AncientPC · #8 09-18-2004, 12:12 AM

[ QUOTE ]
There are times where i will raise it, but i say i limp with it about 60% of the time. The reason is if there are many limpers before me, i dont wanna put in a huge bet (one big enough to get me heads up or 3 way) because 2 out of 3 times im going to miss, and even when i hit im not guarenteed a win. I used to play it similair to how you described but i have found that i make much more money if i limp in and bet the standard "top pair bet" on a hit flop. This way i keep Kx and Ax in the hand who will probably pay me more by calling all my bets than if i had knocked em out preflop. Also, when i miss, i lose 1 BB... so what? While AA, KK, and AKs are considered the "premium hands", AKs is a long ways off of AA and closer but still not KK. If you preflop bet AK heavy, youll get calls from PPs mostly, and youll have lost all suprise value. Also, you can still fold AK (belive it or not) when you feel you are beaten even after finding an A or K on the flop if you havent commited yourself preflop. Sets do happen, and bad aces cant still hit two pair...

[/ QUOTE ]

You're missing the point. You want to weed out the field so less people catch 2 pair or draws. You're too focused on winning pots and not winning money.

Say you have AKs on the button and there are 5 limpers. I'd raise to 6xBB. You only need one guy to call to be equivalent of all 5 calling 2xBB's. Now if it's a heads up or 3 way pot, you have a much better chance at winning rather than up against a field of 5.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, when i miss, i lose 1 BB... so what?

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And when you win, you win like 5BB.

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If you preflop bet AK heavy, youll get calls from PPs mostly, and youll have lost all suprise value.

[/ QUOTE ]

My preflop raise percentage is around 10-11%, they can't put me on AK just because I raised preflop.

With AK I bet pre flop and pot sized on flop. Anybody who calls I'm slowing down unless I have a pair, and even then I'm wary of pocket AA-KK / sets. Even if the flop came AAK, I'd still bet pot sized because that's what people expect me to do.

AK does not take down big pots unless everybody went all in preflop. It only wins small to medium sized pots, problem is when people overplay them trying to catch top pair with the calling station following having hit a piece of the flop.

Betting pot size also disguises your hand, because personally that's how I play overpairs as well. I've check raised plenty people who bet 1/2 the pot or less because it just screams 2 overcards to me (that is unless I know they're a tricky bastard [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] ).

ChipLeader · #9 09-18-2004, 12:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]

You're missing the point. You want to weed out the field so less people catch 2 pair or draws. You're too focused on winning pots and not winning money.

Say you have AKs on the button and there are 5 limpers. I'd raise to 6xBB. You only need one guy to call to be equivalent of all 5 calling 2xBB's. Now if it's a heads up or 3 way pot, you have a much better chance at winning rather than up against a field of 5.

[/ QUOTE ]

Youre forgetting something crucial here, AKs is a drawing hand as well. If we're talking about PartyPoker, which i believe the original post was talking about, then we are playing against people who for the most part learned to play watching ESPN. They call very loosely and are often not intimidated by your flop bet. If they miss, they fold and youve gained the 6x BB you put into it, plus some dead money. If they hit, or wont fold a PP knowing youre on AK (or thinking that you are anyway), then you lose the 6x BB you put in, plus the flop bet (usually at least what you bet preflop).

[ QUOTE ]
Also, when i miss, i lose 1 BB... so what?

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And when you win, you win like 5BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

No... when i hit i almost always get called by an Ax or Kx and they pay me much more than 6x BB by the time we get to the river.

Dont get me wrong, in tournament settings or mid level limits, or even on 25/50 PokerStars, i am going to raise AKs almost every time because i know that the players arent going to play their marginal hands against my raise. On PartyPoker, however, i feel the competition is for the most part calling stations and i am much more comfortable taking pots with hands that ive hit than trying to muscle a couple extra BBs out of them.

AncientPC · #10 09-18-2004, 02:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

You're missing the point. You want to weed out the field so less people catch 2 pair or draws. You're too focused on winning pots and not winning money.

Say you have AKs on the button and there are 5 limpers. I'd raise to 6xBB. You only need one guy to call to be equivalent of all 5 calling 2xBB's. Now if it's a heads up or 3 way pot, you have a much better chance at winning rather than up against a field of 5.

[/ QUOTE ]

Youre forgetting something crucial here, AKs is a drawing hand as well. If we're talking about PartyPoker, which i believe the original post was talking about, then we are playing against people who for the most part learned to play watching ESPN. They call very loosely and are often not intimidated by your flop bet. If they miss, they fold and youve gained the 6x BB you put into it, plus some dead money. If they hit, or wont fold a PP knowing youre on AK (or thinking that you are anyway), then you lose the 6x BB you put in, plus the flop bet (usually at least what you bet preflop).

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's dangerous to assume your opponents are idiots before playing with them for a bit and to play AK thus so.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, when i miss, i lose 1 BB... so what?

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And when you win, you win like 5BB.

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No... when i hit i almost always get called by an Ax or Kx and they pay me much more than 6x BB by the time we get to the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

And how many times did your TPTK lose to 2 pair, set, flush, or straights with hands that would've been normally folded for a preflop raise?

[ QUOTE ]
Dont get me wrong, in tournament settings or mid level limits, or even on 25/50 PokerStars, i am going to raise AKs almost every time because i know that the players arent going to play their marginal hands against my raise. On PartyPoker, however, i feel the competition is for the most part calling stations and i am much more comfortable taking pots with hands that ive hit than trying to muscle a couple extra BBs out of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Code:<hr /><pre>http://twodimes.net/h/?z=520306
pokenum -h as ks - jc tc - 5h 5d - qh 9d
Holdem Hi: 1086008 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As Ks 396014 36.47 688419 63.39 1575 0.15 0.365
Jc Tc 280019 25.78 804414 74.07 1575 0.15 0.258
5d 5h 219208 20.18 865225 79.67 1575 0.15 0.202
Qh 9d 189192 17.42 895241 82.43 1575 0.15 0.175</pre><hr />

You want them calling with marginal hands. Yes it will lead to more variance, but in the long run AKs will still come out ahead.

Say you raise 6xBB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and get two callers with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Flop comes J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Even if he hits his top pair, you still have 2 over cards and a flush draw. You're still +EV to win the hand:

Code:<hr /><pre>
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=520316
pokenum -h ah kh - js ts - 5d 5c -- jh 7s 6h
Holdem Hi: 903 enumerated boards containing 7s Jh 6h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ah Kh 468 51.83 435 48.17 0 0.00 0.518
Js Ts 384 42.52 519 57.48 0 0.00 0.425
5c 5d 51 5.65 852 94.35 0 0.00 0.056
</pre><hr />

If you only had a backdoor flush draw, you'd be a 1:3 dog but could just check / call it down after a flop bet. AKs and AKo can be played incorrectly very easily for -EV, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't raise preflop with them.

My personal PT stats with AKs and AKo:
AKs, 59 hands, 79.66% win, 6.44BB/hand, 93.22% PFR
AKo, 148 hands, 59.46% win, 1.07BB/hand, 87.84% PFR