20/40 at Potawatomi

[Toonces]

Hero is in SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. UTG+2 and MP1 are loose. CO is average tightness and seems to play well.

2 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, 2 folds , CO calls, button calls, Hero <font color="red"> raises</font>, BB folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, CO call, button calls.

Flop (10 small bets) is A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero bets, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, CO <font color="red"> raises</font>, button folds. Hero ???

[flytrap]

I'm definately folding here. Even if you hit a king, you might not win, as one of the kings is a spade and the other could very well make a straight, or give someone a gutshot. You bet, got 2 callers, then got raised. You said the raiser plays well, so he's probably raising you with a good draw or an ace, because he can see that there are two callers and that you raised before the flop. Even if he's on a draw, you have to worry about the two loose callers, who could easily have an A here. Just muck it and hope your kings don't flop an Ace next time.

[CanKid]

ya fold

[MrGo]

It's an easy fold.

[Kevin J]

If this was in an online Party 15-30 game, you should probably 3-bet the flop and if 4 bet, call, and then lead the turn no matter what comes or how many players are still in. If you get raised on the turn, then 3-bet, and if re-raised, well now you're probably beat, but you have to call it down since the pot is so big. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Even though the Potowatomi 20-40 game is one of the best in the country, it still isn't nearly as easy as the Party 15-30, so just fold.

[elindauer]

What were you thinking when you bet the flop?

[elysium]

hi toon

in this situation, it's usually better to try to driveout check-raise a weak LP who is betting because he has been checked to. as it is, you should probably fold, although now that's a little messy because you are almost getting correct odds to spike; so you are pretty much down to just spiking.

this is a good post though. it is a clear example of a botched hand. you don't understand how weak you are here, and you make a betout that forces the weak A to keep on calling you down. that betout helps out the weak A. and that's why i like this post. the player who takes this one down doesn't play nearly as well as you do. you're a much better player. however, you are so good that you compell your opponents to play more correctly than they would against a weak tight who thinks there is no hope to win here. the weak tight will check the flop, the button will bet, and be called by everyone. playing it like that is much worse than calling one more bet after having already put in a bet on the flop, and so on, and so on, and so on. in the second case, the players are playing better, although the reason they are playing better is because of the initial betout from EP.

from LP, the betout makes much more sense, because from LP, among other things, it is much more difficult to get the players left to act to play better than their actual ability. from EP, it is easier to get them to play better. so what you try to do is get one of the LP to take the initiative since the LP is less likely to do something that will make the players left to act play better than their actual ability. does this mean that it's always correct to check from EP so that the LP will act first with a reduction of risk that he will make the field play more correctly? no. sometimes you hand can stand a lot of players playing more correctly. what you say? yes. sometimes you want the field to play better, as long as you will have the mathematical advantage start to finish. if, for example, the game has many limpers coming in with anything, then betting out might get a button to trap raise everyone between you and him, and, so that the MP's play more correctly, you might call with your nut draw and two overs against the right type field to get them to play more correctly. it would be correct for many hands to call one bet, but incorrect for many of those same hands to call 2 cold. if, however, you think that there is some chance that top pair can take it down, and enough of those same opponents will fold, then reraising makes sense. so you need to have a feel for when to raise with AJs or AQs and when to call, even if a raise would have caused the field to play incorrectly more often than it would play correctly. you want them to play correctly when they are drawing dead, and top pair isn't enough to take it down.

this is a good post because we can see how the hand was botched up, and we can see how to adjust our thinking to meet the challenge of a hand that can stand the field playing correctly, and one that cannot.

[Toonces]

On the actual hand, I did fold my Kings. I turned out to have the best hand at decision time, and would have won the hand. LP had 2 spades, and the winning hand was a pair of jacks by one of the loose players when the spade flush didn't happen. The only one with an ace in this hand was the button and he folded to 2 bets.

I can see that the right thing to do would have been to check-raise LP. Unfortunately, that would have likely kept the button in on this hand, and I would have lost.

What should I do if UTG+2 bets and is overcalled twice in this case?

[Rick Nebiolo]

Haven't looked at the other responses yet.

I'd tend to call the flop raise and lead again on the turn if a non spade comes. If I was raised again then I give it up.

Note that if a spade comes you were either already beat or just got beat and are too far behind to catch up (so you shouldn't waste a turn bet).

~ Rick