Hand Question.

[MRomeo]

Admittedly a newbie.

I'm in Big Blind position, 8 players see the flop. 1 Bet comes around to me. We now have 14 bets in the pot, and I only need 1 to continue.

My hand= Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Flop= 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I have the low pair. As I understand it I should call this, as I have 5 cards that would give me the nut(another 4 or a queen), not even counting the flush draw. Pot Odds are 14:1 and I have a 10:1 shot at getting my card on the turn. So, am I correct in calling? Excuse the newness, trying to figure out pot odds.

[Piiop]

Welcome to the forums.

Yes, you should call. Two 4's + 3 Queens + 1.5 outs for backdoor flush = 6.5 outs. Odds of hitting one of these cards on the turn is ~7.2:1. The pot is laying you 14:1 odds.

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I have the low pair

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You have middle pair. This is better than low pair.

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as I have 5 cards that would give me the nut(

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The "nuts" refers to the best hand possible with the current board. In this case, the nut hand would be pocket 8's. If a 4 or a Q comes on the turn, you won't have the nuts, but you will probably have the best hand.

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not even counting the flush draw

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You should not not count backdoor draws. You should give count this as 1.5 outs.

[tiltaholic]

Hi
Welcome!
It would help to know where the bet on the flop came from. The way you decribed it I interpret:
preflop, there are 7 limpers, you check the BB.
8 bets in the pot - the SB checks, you check, the person to your immediate left, UTG if he's still in, bets, and everyone either calls or folds making 14 bets in the pot and you to act....

in this situation the pot is huge and you have the odds to call. i would definitely call here if i am closing the action. if i wasn't closing the action, i would call if i didn't fear a raise from whoever was left to act.

you are correct that you have 5 outs (3 queens and 2 4s) to improve (not even counting a little extra outs for the backdoor flush), and they would likely improve you enough to win the hand -- but technically they wouldn't be the nuts. (if a queen fell on the turn, the nuts would be someone holding QQ - if a 4 fell, the nuts would be 88 for the full house). but anyway, yes, the odds are in favor of calling. the pot is giving you 14:1 and for 5 outs you need about 8:1.
-t

[tiltaholic]

ah- you type faster than me.

I would suggest that when just learning the game, odds, and outs that new players not worry about adding 1.5 outs for a backdoor flush. But that was just the way I learned...

[Piiop]

ah- you type faster than me.

I try to type the first response to a post as fast as I can - it makes me feel awesome. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

that new players not worry about adding 1.5 outs for a backdoor flush

Why not?

[MRomeo]

Wow! Thanks for all the help all. That definitely helps. Quick too.

Thanks for the welcome to the board. Just getting a feel for the game. Started playing a few months ago after I bonus whored on BJ and made about $2k, decided to try something a little more fun. Put $50 in, was gutted and filleted. Put another $50 in this past month, lost it all to $3. Bought the Lee Jones- Winning Low Limit Hold'em. And in the past two days since becoming more tight-agressive took my $3 and shot back to about $20(.05/.1).

I think my main problem is not knowing when to fold and when to hold on to the cards after the flop. I'm pretty sure I have pre-flop down(at least according to Lee Jones). But, post flop I flounder. I probably fold too often when I should call(or raise), and call when I should fold. Any tips on getting better at that? Should I be reading all the hand analysis on here to get a feel? All the books seem to suggest calculating pot odds is simple, are there tricks to get better at it?

I know SSHE by Ed Miller should be the next step. Should I spend another 1-2k hands or so getting the feel for the Lee Jones material, or shoot right over to SSHE?

Hi

I think Lee Jones book has become obsolete. Though it is filled with useful information, it'll mislead you with a heap of outright mistaken material. I would start with Theory of Poker, than SSHE. IMO, TOP is the single most important book because it teaches the underlying rationale of every other book.

Best,
T. Bernstein

[tiltaholic]

About the backdoor outs...

I dunno, it just seems that it's not going to impact the decision all that much. If the pot odds comes down to 1.5 outs, the call/fold decision is probably close enough that either choice is not that wrong or right. Starting off by focusing on the important outs/situations seemed to work well for me. For example, pot odds needed for gut-shots, OESDs, 4 flushes...etc...later on, I began to factor in the backdoors, possibilty of tainted outs, and so on.

just my 2cents though...
-t

[tiltaholic]

No prob-
Read the hands on the forum.
Post hands on the forum. Especially hands where you weren't sure what to do. Ask questions, even on hands you didn't post. It will help so much.

My copy of SSHE just arrived today! Haven't read Lee Jones. Wouldn't bother. The Theory of Poker is a great fundamental introduction and I am going to reread it soon.

-t

[MRomeo]

As a beginning Poker player, does Theory of Poker make sense to read at this early stage?

I understand that I need to get SSHE, it is on order from Amazon(stupid 1-2 weeks shipping).

Is the Lee Jones book so off base? I can tell my playing has gotten better since reading it. Will SSHE catapult it to that much higher of a level?