Common post-flop situation, what is the standard play??

[tpir90036]

Early on in a 'Stars $50 MTT.

blinds are 15/30. Seemingly reasonable UTG+2 (T1700) raises to 90. CO and Button call and Hero (T1800) calls in the BB with J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

Flop: (T375) T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Hero checks. UTG+2 bets 350. CO folds, Button folds. Hero ????

My hand is very likely good, but i am out of position and showing it down for cheap is likely out of the question. So what is the standard play here?

Leading out seems reasonable if the pot were heads-up...but the CO and Button are reason for some concern.

Check-raising will most likely take the pot down *if i am already ahead* since my opponent will most likely be folding overcards. Obviously I can lay down to a big re-raise or a push.

I suppose that check-folding is an option as well since i was really playing JTs for it's big draw value and not it's TP value. Just seems awfully weak though...

All thoughs appreciated,
-tpir

[Ryner]

Top pair with a decent kicker... I probaly would have tossed out a bet, at least to try to get an idea where everyone stands. If someone comes back over the top, then you can start worrying. It's always good to have information, and you dont want it to get checked around in that situation and risk an overcard, I would think.

[tpir90036]

The problem of course is that the information I get will be unreliable since the PF raiser could think I am on a steal and raise me here with AK.... And my hand can definitely not stand a raise of any sort.

[MrX]

I cannot answer your question..because I have the same exact question in my head. I have not come up with agreat answer and this scenario comes up over and over..I prob fold some winners here.

[tpir90036]

I don't think that folding a winner here is that horrible since we are out of position and our hand is not particularly strong. The part that I find interesting is that our hand is actually irrelevant since (if we bet out or check-raise) we are either going to A) take it down immediately or B) fold to a re-raise. We might as well have XX....unless of course he flat calls our bet/C-R and we end up making two-pair/trips. In any event, our folding equity outweighs any actual pot equity we might have at this point.

[gergery]

I struggle with this one too.

It seems like you have three choices.
a) check with the intention of folding to bets. If UTG is any good he's likely to bet at this board which isn't too drawish.

b) check with the intention of reraising if UTG isolates with you. This is risky, as you need to bet T800 or so to get him to fold, and chances he has an overpair are maybe 35-60% depending on the player. So you are really relying on him to fold.

c) bet out potsize on flop, and fold to reraise.

Personally, I like a) best as TPGK is not a hand i want to lead out with into 3 players, one of whom raised UTG, even with a realtively favorable board. But c) is a good alternative, since they will be likely to put you on a set or two pair to lead into the raiser, overcards still have to fold, and it costs you less chips when it doesn't work.

B) is for the risky adventurers, but its still alittle early in the tourney for that for my taste -- I figure UTG raisers have AK/AQs or AA-88, so why take a coinflip shot at losing my reraise chips?

--Greg

[cferejohn]

I would bet out here every time. I'm ready to muck it to a raise though. If someone has the gall to raise an UTG bet in a 4 way pot with nothing, well, I salute them.

A read on the opponent as aggressive could swing this the other way, but at these stack sizes I agree that I don't really want to play for all my chips with JT with top pair. If UTG+2 is at all reasonable, he will only raise if he is ahead (unless, of course, he thinks *you* are overaggressive; any reason he might think that?).

I don't think there are enough chips left for a check raise attempt. Yes, you could try it, and yes it would probably let you know if you were ahead, but a check-raise here is going to be about half your stack; I just think that is too much of a risk.

I think a much better question is: what do you do if you are called and an apperant blank comes on the turn? Any undercard completes some kind of straight (albeit unlikely ones due to the preflop raise). More worrisome is that someone has a set.

[tpir90036]

I think your line is best.... but again, the thing that is most interesting to me is that our actual hand is meaningless since we aren't calling a raise. We might as well have 72o.

If I am called and I don't improve at all then it comes down to my read of UTG+2. If I think he would take one off with AK I might have to fire again. Otherwise, I might have to shut it down on the turn.

[Ghazban]

I agree with this line, too. If the preflop raiser raises your flop bet with two people still to act, its pretty clear that your hand is no good. If you check to him, you are in the dilemma of playing headup with TPGK out of position against what might be an overpair (as you obviously noticed in creating this thread). When you lead out (I'd say for about 2/3 of the pot), you commit a minimal number of chips and can easily get away from the hand if you are raised. If you are just called, you are probably beat by a higher kicker or a slowplayed set and can check/fold the turn or river if you don't improve.

[ZootMurph]

When I hit the flop like this, I always bet into the preflop raiser. I'm ready to fold to a large reraise (3x my bet, which will likely be about 150 in this example).

BTW, I make this same bet if I'm holding TT [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] So those particular plays can set each other up nicely.