Should I have called this flop?

eric5148 · #1 08-06-2004, 01:25 PM

Not sure if I should have called this flop. Two overcards and a gutshot on a rather uncoordinated board. I'm getting 12 to 1 pot odds. BTW, I called preflop because this was a very passive table. UTG limped with AK.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: eric is MP3 with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, eric calls, CO raises, 2 folds, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, eric calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, eric folds, CO calls, BB folds.

Turn: (6.75 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, CO calls, UTG calls.

River: (9.75 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, CO checks.

Final Pot: 9.75 BB
Main Pot: 9.75 BB, between UTG, UTG+1 and CO.

Songwind · #2 08-06-2004, 01:29 PM

I would. The pot is pretty big, and you have a ton of outs:

4 10s for a straight
3 cards each on two overcards
10 total outs
discount a little because someone's probably got at least one 10 and one Q, so call it 8 outs.

out of 47 cards, 8 will help you. 39:8 is 4.75:1, and you're getting 11.5:1 pot odds. Take a look at the turn.

kgrad5 · #3 08-06-2004, 01:30 PM

fold pre flop, jqo is trash, once your in the hand you can call the flop. save this hand for the blinds and do NOT call a raise with it.

Sent · #4 08-06-2004, 01:31 PM

Yes I think so, at best you have 10 outs and you were getting enough odds for the gutshot alone.

-Sent

bennyk · #5 08-06-2004, 01:31 PM

Yes.

You are getting 12.5:1 on your call, which is more than enough for your gut shot draw.

Add to that the possibility that your overcards are good if they hit, and you should at least call.

bk

eric5148 · #6 08-06-2004, 01:41 PM

QJo is not trash if you can see the flop for one bet in a multiway pot the vast majority of the time. This table was quite passive.

I certainly would never cold-call a raise with it.

chief444 · #7 08-06-2004, 01:43 PM

Kgrad is right, you should probably fold this pf.

And to answer your question you should not call this flop. You should raise.

BradleyT · #8 08-06-2004, 01:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
10 total outs
discount a little because someone's probably got at least one 10 and one Q, so call it 8 outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't discount the 10 because you think someone has one in their hand. You would discount the 10 if there was a two flush on the board and hitting a 10 of that suit would possibly give someone a flush.

You discount the Q and J because you could easily be up against allready made sets, overpairs, AQ, KQ, AJ, KJ, and even (J/Q)9 and (J/Q)8 - all of which would give you a second best hand when you hit a single overcard.

Added - and also if you pair your Q or J on the turn, you can still lose to overcards on the river.

kgrad5 · #9 08-06-2004, 01:49 PM

i would never limp with it in mp maybe im too tight, i might limp from the button, you are dominated by too many hands (AJ, AQ, KQ, KJ, JJ, QQ, KK, AA..) for me to like this hand in mp... then again i might just be a tighty

BradleyT · #10 08-06-2004, 02:01 PM

There's not many hands you can make with QJo that you'll be happy to re-raise or call a raise with. You'll hate to see an overcard on the flop turn or river - especially an ace. It's hard to fold if you hit a Q or J with no overcards even though you may already be way behind since it was raised PF.

IMO it's better suited for LP or the muck.