New to NL - should've seen it coming?

schubes · #1 08-01-2004, 08:56 AM

Hi, just started trying out big bet poker (read Ciaffone and Reuben's book), and there are many possibly simple situations I'm uncertain about.
Despite being microlimit, players weren't giving me too much action on pot sized bets.

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $.02 BB (10 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown

UTG ($1.96)
UTG+1 ($.43)
UTG+2 ($5.68)
MP1 ($.62)
MP2 ($.27)
Hero ($2.06)
CO ($2.09)
Button ($1.98)
SB ($.61)
BB ($1.30)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls $0, 2 folds, MP1 calls $0, MP2 calls $0, Hero calls $0, CO calls $0, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks,02,02,02,02,02,

Flop: ($0.14) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (7 players)
SB bets $0.02, BB calls $0.02, UTG calls $0.02, MP1 calls $0.02, MP2 folds, Hero raises to $0.2, CO folds, SB calls $0.18, BB calls $0.18, UTG folds, MP1 folds.

Turn: ($0.78) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, BB bets $0.15, Hero calls $0.15, SB calls $0.15.

River: ($1.23) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, BB bets $0.93 (All-In), Hero calls $0.93, SB folds.

Final Pot: $3.09
Main Pot: $3.09, between Hero and BB. > Pot won by BB ($3.09).

Results in white below: 
BB shows 4s 7d (straight, seven high).
Hero shows 5d 4d (straight, six high).
Outcome: BB wins $3.09. 

Should I have suspected I was drawing dead? Even if I did, could I have gotten away from the hand at any point? Was my flop raise terrible? Comments on any aspect of the hand are appreciated.

Leo Bello · #2 08-01-2004, 09:32 AM

This is the kind of hand that gives you trouble in no-limit cause u decided to play it pre-flop. But, ok, u limped in, and there comes the flop. You have second pair and a str8 draw. You then betted 10 BB! ? Well, at micro-limits it is tough to see, but you overbet the pot with a str8 draw?You could not see you were drawing dead. It was well played by villain. And you couldn´t get out of the hand after u made the str8. But on turn, u called another high bet, with a pair of 5, in a board that minimally had possibility for pair of aces, pair of 6s and other str8 draws.

schubes · #3 08-01-2004, 09:43 AM

To be fair, I didn't call the turn hoping my 5s were good, I was getting correct "pot odds" to catch the straight, and I was getting even better implied odds assuming my opponents don't have 47 and will pay me off. Is this reasoning wrong? Should I have folded here?

Also, is it never correct to raise the flop? I would think I need some cover for my legitimate hands, I had some chance of winning rght there, free card on turn, and I didn't think my draws were too bad. If it is sometimes correct how much to raise (I didn't overbet pot btw)?

I'm just trying to understand, thanks.

RustyCJ · #4 08-01-2004, 10:50 AM

These are definitely the kind of hands to avoid in NL, I am very weary of playing these from the SB, they easily get you into trouble. You need the flop to clobber you over the head for 54s, its too easy to lose alot of money to a better hand.

I had 42s from the button the other day, with 4 limpers to me, I really wanted to play it but said nope, I could easily lose alot of money to a better flush or straight, I mucked it. The winning hand was T9s for a flush of the same suit I had. Just toss it, this isn't limit.

You're looking for hands that will win someones stack. If the flop comes A23 you're probably golden, but you're going to need someone with 2 pair or better to get action, or someone who overplays a lone pair.

When you overbet the pot on the flop, it makes it look like you're trying to buy it here, but what hands could possibly call you in this spot? Typically only hands that have you beat or at the very minimum, will beat you. You only have a pair, with a crap kicker. You had 2 callers when you overbet? I'd be worried, normally you will be behind 90% of the time in a spot like that.

I realize this is nano NL and that does change things, people will play almost anything, pennies are meaningless.

Personally, I only play suited connectors down to 76s and suited 1 gaps down to 86s (usually I don't go below J9s except out of the SB). I am new to NL as well and the best way to win for now is to avoid trouble hands and situations difficult to get away from.

Leo Bello · #5 08-01-2004, 12:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
To be fair, I didn't call the turn hoping my 5s were good, I was getting correct "pot odds" to catch the straight, and I was getting even better implied odds assuming my opponents don't have 47 and will pay me off. Is this reasoning wrong? Should I have folded here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your odds were 4.75/1, and u had to call 0.15 to win 1.08 not counting SB still to act 7.2/1. So, the call was correct on turn based on the chances u gonna make the str8.
You have to consider also, that this are the odds off u making the str8, not of making the best hand. Although, I agree, you couldn´t guess someone would have 47.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, is it never correct to raise the flop? I would think I need some cover for my legitimate hands, I had some chance of winning rght there, free card on turn, and I didn't think my draws were too bad. If it is sometimes correct how much to raise (I didn't overbet pot btw)?
I'm just trying to understand, thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

No you didn´t overbet pot, reading the calls, u had betted exactly the pot. You have a good reasoning as to why bet pot here, if you think people will fold (and normally most would, since it is a low board). The only real thing, is u must have a clear idea, why you are making this move. And maybe then, push again on turn (if u are trying to steal the pot). The unclear was to push on flop without a made hand, the just call the bet on turn, then call the all-in on river. Maybe you could have raised the turn to assess the hands of BB and SB, and show strenght.
Anyway, in this specific hand you would be dead anyway, but you are trying to find a pattern on how to play this situations.

unagi · #6 08-01-2004, 05:16 PM

even without knowing that he had a higher straight, or any of that other jazz about calling 54preflop, nobody's addressed the issue of implied odds. many players will back off when the board is a four straight.. you clearly do not have very high implied odds in a situation where the board is A2356, or even moreso in situations where it's something like TJQKx - people aren't dumb (well, that's debateable, as i've seen some people lose large amounts of money in situations like this with their 2 pair or something equally trivial) and will often back off.. make sure you factor that into your "implied odds". for example, if you are chasing a flush with 2 suited cards in your hand, that's one thing. if three hit the flop and you're chasing with the ace of that suit in your hand, that's another.. unless someone's extremely liberal with their K or Q, the flush you're trying to chase probably won't pay you off much in implied odds.. there's just too much out there that can give people a scare or make them recheck their hole cards