Did I lose because I showed weakness?

Rhone · #1 07-28-2004, 01:04 AM

This is my first post to 2+2. Unfortunately, it's just the nature of these things that newbies like me get a lot more than they give posting messages in places like this, so I really thank everyone in advance for any advice you can give to improve my play. I've been playing online low or micro limit HE for about a month now, never having really played poker before that. I started by reading Poker for Dummies (which I didn't really like, but maybe I'll post on that later).

I've been doing pretty well in the limited time I've been playing, and one thing I've noticed is that it seems like a lot of the time hands are lost instead of won, that is, player A wins money because of the ineptitude of players B & C, rather than through his own ingenious play. Do you agree? Below is a hand I just played, where I feel I lost rather than that the other guy won (but since he didn't show his cards, I'll never know). I'm curious what others think.

I don't feel like I played this hand consistently, first of all. When everyone checked to me after the flop, I made the assumption that no one held Q or K. But when all but one player called behind me when I bet there, I had second thoughts, and got cold feet after the turn, even though the turn wasn't bad for me. Should I have kept the pressure on by betting rather than checking after the turn? I can't say anything about the temperments of the players, as I hadn't been playing with them long enough.

I realize this is a very low stakes game, but I am trying to improve my play to get to those higher stakes games.

Thanks again in advance!! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
Rhone

Paradise Poker 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (7 handed)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, CO calls, Hero raises, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (10.40 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP2 checks, CO checks, Hero bets, BB folds, UTG calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (7.20 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG checks, MP2 checks, CO checks, Hero checks.

River: (7.20 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG checks, MP2 bets, CO folds, Hero folds, UTG folds.

Final Pot: 8.20 BB

Nemesis · #2 07-28-2004, 01:25 AM

I think at the size of the pot on the river there's NO WAY you shoudl fold for one bet. With the action the way it was nobody else much likes there hand. You need to win here more than 12% of the time and you make a profit, with the previous action I think you're good.

kureido · #3 07-28-2004, 01:34 AM

Generally speaking, with four limpers to a K Q x flop, I'd assume that someone's made a pair of kings or queens. However, they probably checked to you because you showed strength with your preflop raise.

Preflop: I'd probably limp in with 88 on the button here and plan on folding if I don't hit a set on the flop.

Flop: Personally, with this flop and four limpers, I'd be looking for a way out of this hand, but when it's checked to you, I'd probably bet it, and see what the rest of the field does, then plan on checking/folding the turn unimproved. There are only two cards in the deck that will improve your hand, and one of them (8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]) puts a three-flush on the board.

Turn: This turn card *is* bad for you; any two clubs has you beat, even if you hit a miracle 8 on the river (and remember, the 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] on the river means any club has you beat now). Maybe MP2 made his flush and was planning on check-raising you here, but you escaped by checking through the turn, so he bet out on the river instead of trying to be tricky again.

River: If MP2 was trying to check-raise his flush on the turn, and you escaped, he'd bet out here. Or maybe he made two pair with the four. Or he's got nothing, you can never tell with .05/.10 players. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] You might be behind here; but for one more big bet with a pot of 8BB, you may as well call, you're already here. And if he's betting those fours, you've got him beat. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

So, really, I'd have played this hand almost exactly the same as you did, but with different reasons.

-b

Nottom · #4 07-28-2004, 02:47 AM

I'd probablt go ahead and bet the turn, but check-folding might be better with that board.

bernie · #5 07-28-2004, 03:00 AM

Preflop: Fine. Many may not put you on a set if you hit it. Especially if they're the passive/weenie types that only raise the big cards.

Flop: I'll take the free card here. Why? Anyone calling your bet will give you about zero info other than they have a hand to call a bet with. You still won't know where you stand. They could have a K, Q or many draws to sift through.

Any openended str8 is a favorite over you at this point. Though, only by a gnats ass. Any flush draw with 2 overcards to you is ahead by even more.

River: You're very likely beat. Probably by at least a Q, maybe a weak K. However, you also could've induced a bet from a lesser hand with your turn check. Even at the matchstick levels it can happen. With more experience, you'll see more-so the better spots where this may be being done. Especially once you profile the opponents more. Some just don't bet without the goods where some will take a shot. It took me awhile to get used to seeing these spots. Some are pretty obvious, some aren't. This isn't to say call every river bet after checking the turn, just be aware of the possibility. Again, that opponent knowledge thing.

Also watch how they bet certain boards. Like with the turn here. Some will bet out with a made flush not wanting it to get checked through, etc...

This can also help with smoking out a possible induced bluff.

Anyways, first things first. Roll up your sleeves and get involved like ya are. Get a good starter book. There are many out there. Get a couple. Most on the forum have read most of them at one time or another. My first piece of advice would be to make sure you're solid preflop. Focus on understanding preflop play. Play overtight if you have to. Then build from there. You may already be doing this, but i'll cover the base anyways. Lots of new players postflop mistakes are built from bad preflop play.

Have a good one!

b

Rhone · #6 07-28-2004, 11:35 AM

Thanks to everyone for their comments. It was interesting that there was a difference of opinion, but that's great, gives me more to think about.

I'm also happy to post in a forum where, unlike a certain newsgroup whose name will go unmentioned, the replies don't all begin with some variation of "Dear idiot," ...

Rhone

ErrantNight · #7 07-28-2004, 11:41 AM

you mix some good advice with some awful advice...

most important thing here is that just because a threeflush is on the board and people are checking around does NOT mean one of them secretly lurks with a flush in their hand waiting to check-raise you...

the way the hand played out you MUST call the river... but a turn bet here might not be bad... you'll get reraised if you're behind and you're still representing strength to the board, when that blank hits on the river everyone busts out you might win without showing down, or, you might win from a showdown... in low limits like this you're very likely up against a K or Q w/ x that is gonna call you down regardless, so the turn check is fine but call the river... still no one is showing strength all the way to you on the turn a bet here is fine

Sarge85 · #8 07-28-2004, 12:39 PM

Hi Rhone - let's disect some of your items and the hand...

[ QUOTE ]
This is my first post to 2+2. Unfortunately, it's just the nature of these things that newbies like me get a lot more than they give posting messages in places like this,

[/ QUOTE ]

Welcome to the fourm. A journal of 1000 miles begins with a few steps.

[ QUOTE ]
I started by reading Poker for Dummies (which I didn't really like, but maybe I'll post on that later).

[/ QUOTE ]

Try these books: Winning Low Limit Hold'em, Theory of Poker, Holdem for Advanced Players, Small Stakes Hold'em. Try the Books Fourm for additional information.

[ QUOTE ]
one thing I've noticed is that it seems like a lot of the time hands are lost instead of won, that is, player A wins money because of the ineptitude of players B & C, rather than through his own ingenious play. Do you agree?

[/ QUOTE ]

Very Very True.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't feel like I played this hand consistently, first of all. When everyone checked to me after the flop, I made the assumption that no one held Q or K.

[/ QUOTE ]

More often than not, they'll check to you simply because you raised, even if they hold top pair.

Paradise Poker 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (7 handed)
[ QUOTE ]

Preflop: Hero is Button with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, CO calls, Hero raises, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are better off just limping along here. With the limpers in the pot, the money you'll make on this hand will be made if/when you hit a set. - basically your hand needs to improve.
[ QUOTE ]

Flop: (10.40 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP2 checks, CO checks, Hero bets, BB folds, UTG calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

This flop is a disastor for you. Very coordinated, with 2 overcards. - A bet here will not pick up the pot- There is just too much out there that people will stick around for. - Typically you'll check-fold a hand like this when the board is this coordinated, with two over cards.

[ QUOTE ]

Turn: (7.20 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG checks, MP2 checks, CO checks, Hero checks.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd check it through unimproved as well.

[ QUOTE ]
River: (7.20 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG checks, MP2 bets, CO folds, Hero folds, UTG folds.

Final Pot: 8.20 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the fold was fine.

Generally with med. and small pocket pairs - it's "Set or No Bet". Now every now and then if there are only one or two opponents in the pot on the flop, and the flop is raggedy, you still may be ahead and be able to pick up the pot on the flop - even if there is one overcard to your pair. It's very situationally dependent, and I think only experience will help you make those calls when your faced with them.

Hope this helps

Sarge [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Sarge85 · #9 07-28-2004, 12:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
you mix some good advice with some awful advice...

[/ QUOTE ]

Where was the awful advice?

I read the hand pretty much the same way. Opponents have either a King, a Queen, or the flush - I don't believe he was saying just because the club fell that the flush, but it is another card that devalues our hand.

Sarge[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

flair1239 · #10 07-28-2004, 04:14 PM

I see nothing wrong with that fold. I think alot of the criticism of folding hands recently stems from people misinterpreting what Ed Miller has been saying.... don't fold for on bet on the flop with 2nd pair... overcards w/BD draws etc.

If this pot was 15, 20, or 30 BB yea then it is probably worth a call, but here in this situation I think he is beat more than 90% of the time.