Responding to a surprise river raise.

[elindauer]

Party 3/6. loose / semi-passive table.

UTG limps. MP limps. I check with :

A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

The flop is:

A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I check, it's checked around.

Turn: 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

I bet. Both call.

River:

T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I bet, hoping for callers. UTG raises! MP folds. What to do? WHAT... TO... DO....?

[sfer]

Call. Why didn't you bet the flop?

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
Call. Why didn't you bet the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm a check-raisin' fool. Separately, what range of hands do you put the raiser on?

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm a check-raisin' fool. Separately, what range of hands do you put the raiser on?

[/ QUOTE ]

lol. I'm a flop betting fool who walks into checkraises with alarming regularity. I love 3-betting.

Anyway, I'd expect to see some sort of 2-pair often enough where I don't even consider folding. But I'm not a good enough player to fold to a 4-bet so I just call. Blah. I suck.

[sthief09]

check-raising 2 people who didn't raise preflop with an A on the board, and a coordinated flop generally isn't the best idea.

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
check-raising 2 people who didn't raise preflop with an A on the board, and a coordinated flop generally isn't the best idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not? I find that by checking, several good things can happen:

a) somebody bluffs at it. Some of these players hate being caught with their hand in the cookie jar, and will even call the check-raise only to fold the turn. That's a big mistake.

b) somebody bets a weaker hand like a king. The check-raise almost always ties them emotionally to the pot, and they call all the way down, a big mistake in this tiny pot.

c) it gets checked through and I bet the turn. I find that I'll get called by just about anything after that, as nobody ever believes I've actually checked top pair on the flop.


Of course, the strategy isn't foolproof. Some bad things can happen:

1) somebody checks that would have called, and I miss a small bet.

Unfortunate. I weigh this against the extra bluffs picked off, bad calldowns, and think the check-raise comes out ahead, but I think it's a tough choice.

2) somebody that would not have called catches a miracle card on the turn to win the pot.

This worst case scenario is also, fortuantely, extremely rare. Besides, I'm not too worried about costing myself this 1.5 BB pot once in a while.


So, there you have it. In a game where players are semi-knowledgable and showing a healthy fear of aces, I'll frequently check top pair weak kicker when I flop an ace. I'm not convinced I'm right and would like to hear more discussion. Thoughts?


Thanks,
Eric

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
2) somebody that would not have called catches a miracle card on the turn to win the pot.

This worst case scenario is also, fortuantely, extremely rare. Besides, I'm not too worried about costing myself this 1.5 BB pot once in a while.


[/ QUOTE ]

On this board the possibility of being outdrawn is certainly not "extremely rare." You're way off here.

[balkii]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
2) somebody that would not have called catches a miracle card on the turn to win the pot.

This worst case scenario is also, fortuantely, extremely rare. Besides, I'm not too worried about costing myself this 1.5 BB pot once in a while.


[/ QUOTE ]

On this board the possibility of being outdrawn is certainly not "extremely rare." You're way off here.

[/ QUOTE ]


I agree with this but I think what Hero is getting at is that any hand that will draw out his top pair with any sort of frequency is probably betting this flop in a 3-way pot. Then he can get a checkraise in. This is good

If his opponents hold poor hands will not often draw out against his top pair, checking is rather risk-free, and may induce calls from someone who picks up a pair on the turn.

I'm not neccesarily advocating checking this flop here but it certainly has some merit to it against the right opponents.

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
2) somebody that would not have called catches a miracle card on the turn to win the pot.

This worst case scenario is also, fortuantely, extremely rare. Besides, I'm not too worried about costing myself this 1.5 BB pot once in a while.


[/ QUOTE ]

On this board the possibility of being outdrawn is certainly not "extremely rare." You're way off here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you missed a very important part of that sentence, which I have gone ahead and highlighted for you. Certainly I will be outdrawn frequently on this board, but many of those hands would have called a flop bet anyways. The hands I was thinking of are gutshot draws and pocket pairs, and with only two opponents, it will certainly be unusual to see the parlay of events that a) that hand is out against me, b) the flop gets checked through, and c) they catch on the turn.

Perhaps I overstated the case somewhat with my word choice, but "way off" is also quite overstated.

my 2 cents.
Eric

[balkii]

I agree with this. I believe gutshot draws and pocket pairs will often bet this flop themselves, allowing you to checkraise and cause them to make a huge mistake in this tiny pot.