Just Calling with AK on the Big Blind

[PDosterM]

Recently I tapped my option with AK in the big blind against 5 limpers. I wound up winning a nice pot, but after the game, someone I respect said he thought not raising was a poor play – being aggressive here and betting for value was what he advocated.

Normally I do this against a smaller field, and if there is a preflop raise – particularly a late one – I will generally pop it again. Here I reasoned that against 5 opponents, not raising was in order. My rationale is 1) AK is a drawing hand – a good one admittedly, but it still needs help on the flop, 2) If I don’t connect with the flop, I’m not going to bet into five opponents, and will almost certainly fold if someone bets, and 3) it’s nice and deceptive. Actually the deception is what got me the pot. I wound up with Broadway, and K9 didn’t put me on AK until way too late.

One of the things I am working on is to appropriately increase my aggression – I’m tight enough, but I have to fight my natural tendency to be passive.

In your opinion, is my logic correct? Or is this an appropriate place to be more aggressive?

[James282]

Hey, I would raise because you make money on every $ that goes into the pot against most limpers here, and you take control of the pot. Assuming that no one has AA or KK, you will win the pot well more than your fair share by the end to make this a profitable raise. Also, deception isn't as useful when against 5 opponents.

Understand that there are currently 6 people in the pot, so in order to show a profit on money put into the pot before the flop, you need to be expected to win more than 16.6% of the time. I did a quick simulation on twodimes.net against hands that decent people would limp in with(although in most games, this simulation gives them FAR too much credit, but it should give you an idea). I included K9o since it was in this particular hand and I tried not to have your opponents forfeiting eachothers outs too much.

Kc Ad .232
7s 7h .212
6d 5d .205
Ks 9c .049
Qh Jh .240
9s Jc .063

As you can see, your EV of about .232 puts you in a position where you like every penny that goes in against these opponents increases your expected value more than your fair share(which would be .167). Combine other things like the fact that your raise will have opponents incorrectly fold if they make a middle pair when you flop an A because they "know" you have an A and I think the raise becomes a good one.

This raise has even more value against opponents who will enter with miscellaneous crap, and not legitimate hands like the ones I speculate. If you are playing against loose-passive opponents(which it seems if 5 limpers is typical) then your raise will often show value, regardless of whether your hand is a "drawing hand" or not.
-James

[astroglide]

i never call with ace king. i do not expect to make 5 small bets because of "deception" in your situation.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
1) AK is a drawing hand - a good one admittedly, but it still needs help on the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

AK is not a drawing hand. AK is likely the best hand dealt out. All the other hands are drawing against AK.

[ QUOTE ]
2) If I don’t connect with the flop...will almost certainly fold if someone bets

[/ QUOTE ]

That's far too weak.

[ QUOTE ]
3) it’s nice and deceptive.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd rather make money than be deceptive.

[deacsoft]

I like to raise with it from the BB, but checking it every once in a great while is not such a bad play. It should be raised because against a hand full of limpers it is almost certainly the best hand.

[SinCityGuy]

I hope that it wasn't suited.

As Mr. Sklansky said, failing to raise AKs from any position against limpers is a crime against humanity.

[GuyOnTilt]

i do not expect to make 5 small bets because of "deception" in your situation.

You do realize that he doesn't have 100% pot equity preflop, right? I'm not saying it's right, but he doesn't need to make up 5 SB's postflop in deception because he's not gaining 5 SB's from a raise.

GoT

[beachbum]

How about checking AK in the BB preflop and check raising the flop if you hit the ace or king? That way you knock out gutshot straight draws, backdoor flush draws, middle pair, etc. or at least let them make a mistake on the flop by cold calling 2 bets when the pot is now not big enough since you haven't raised preflop.

I guess the bottom line is with specifically 5 limpers is there +EV in gaining 5 SB preflop by raising, as opposed to losing an occasional pot to someone who drew out on you who otherwise have folded to cold calling 2 bets on the flop? Thoughts?

Of course, with AKs, you raise preflop without a 2nd thought.

When i first saw this post i dismissed it, of course you raise... especially since the 2+2er's here have drilled the pot equity idea into my head.

Then i was reading HEFAP (again [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]) and found this in the loose games section.

Page 168 Looking at some odds, the last paragraph and the very last sentence.

On the other hand, if you are in a loose, passive game where they usually call, but only occasionally raise, you should play any Axs UTG. You should also be playing a hand like J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] UTG, and anything better. You should play these hands because you are going to win a lot when you hit them. That is, you take advantage of bad play. You would also play all pairs. Conversely, you often shouldn't raise with your AK or AQ in spots where you would raise in tougher, tighter games.

I didn't put this here cause i agree with PDosterM, but because i don't understand why you wouldn't raise. Can someone explain the logic behind this sentence?

[LetsRock]

FWIW, I play AK/AQ from the blinds as you did.

I know, it's not the "prefered" method and it strays from THFAP advice, but it's what has worked for best for me. I also have to fight passive urges and I'm working on it. (It seems like every time I try to get aggressive, my timing is off and I end up throwing money away [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]) But I don't think you lose any bets by limping with AK from EP.

If you hit TPTk on the flop, you'll usually get plenty of action by betting out - nobody will put you on that strong of a hand because you're expected to raise it. You'll often get raised by someone with a weaker Ace (or K) and then you can 3-bet since your hand has been "made" (to a much better degree).

If you miss the flop it's much easier to release the hand since you don't feel the need to represent a big PP. True, sometimes you can take down a pot on a missed flop just by betting, but I rarely find that you can get away with bluffing your way through a hand with AK without betting every street - this can be a very expensive proposition.

I'm sure I'll get flamed (I always do when expressing this opinion) and I'm not advising that my style is correct; just offering my view on the subject.