Dead Clubs, Live Diamonds

[Roland]

They're all pretty fishy…

Check-call 4th? Check-raise 4th?
Fold 5th? Call 5th?
Bet 6th?
Fold 7th?




7 Card Stud High ($5/$10), Ante $0.50, Bring-In $2 (hand converter)

3rd Street - (0.70 SB)

Seat 2: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 3: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 4: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___completes
Seat 6: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 7: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls

4th Street - (5.10 SB)

Seat 2: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 3: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 8: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls

5th Street - (4.55 BB)

Seat 2: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets___calls
Seat 3: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 8: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds

6th Street - (10.55 BB)

Seat 2: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks
Seat 3: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks

River - (10.55 BB)

Seat 2: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___checks___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] xx___bets
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls

Total pot: 12.55 BB

[djr]

I don't think 5th is a fold, but its close. You just lost an ace out and the eight is worthless given its a dead rank. I think folding the river is prudent. You only have a pair, bettor probably has at least two pair if not the flush.

WHy not bet 6th? If you're going to raise 5th I think you should bet here given neither of them caught anything obviously good.

[Jeffage]

If you're not folding 5th (and I probably wouldn't) the raise is mandatory. If you're raising 5th, a 6th street bet is mandatory. You raised 5th to make them pay to draw out and b/c you're likely best at the moment, right? Well you know the diamonds is 4-flushing (totally live)...clubs poss are also or it's some type of pair. So how can you give them a free walk?

Jeff

[Michael Emery]

You missed a bet on 6th, Roland. Other than that it looks good to me. I could be tempted to fold this river against anyone I could remotely trust. Those diamonds of his, not to mention his cards in general, look well connected in a straitish board fashion and are live. Sometimes you just gotta pay off for the good of society though.

Mike Emery

[MRBAA]

Okay, maybe I can learn something here. I missed badly on fifth, but I'm not sold that I'm beaten. The first guy bet his dead hand, but the live hand called. Why am I raising them both here with just a lousy looking hand behind me? I have no significant ko value and it's not clear to me that my pot equity is more than 33% here, assuming the one guy folds and the other two call. So...I call it.

On the river, yeah you're probably beaten but you're getting 10-1 and the other guy probably has nothing. It's close.

[Jeffage]

I would raise 5th because if you're ahead, you want to make them pay to hit their draw (s). Also, if you knock out the guy behind you (that has a pair), then you have certainly accomplished something since you've improved your chance to win the whole pot. Basically, if you decide to continue on 5th, I think raising is the most optimal play.

Jeff

[Andy B]

Clearly, you should have been playing high-low.

Third is darn near automatic. You might check-raise on fourth, but who do you think is going to bet? If it's checked to the guy on your left, you'll tie people on, rather than knock them out, which is what I think you would want. If you think it will get checked to the guy on your right, then you'll be able to maybe knock out a couple of people. Frankly, it never occurs to me to check a pair of Aces.

I like the raise on fifth. While it's starting to get a little scary, neither of those guys should have a flush. Would the guy with clubs have called a full bet with a three-flush and three clubs gone on third? If the diamonds had gotten there, he should have raised. Even if your hand isn't currently best, it probably has about the right amount of equity, and it would be nice to knock out a player or three if possible.

Sixth and seventh are fine. You're probably beaten, but this does fall in the good-of-society category.

[MRBAA]

Okay, there may be some value to knocking out the guy behind you, perhaps I'm underestimating the value of getting a pair of pocket 7s out of there (although he might fold for one more bet anyway). But the other guys won't fold, so to me the central question is whether or not your pot equity here is close to 33%. If it's not, then extra bets are -EV for you. If it's higher, than they are +EV. I know you know this, but statements like "making them pay to draw" are too vague for my taste. If one guy has a live four flush and the other has two pair, you are in trouble. On the other hand against just the four flush and a lone pair with a dead three flush or some such, you are doing better. I don't have time or inclination to do the math, but when you factor in the possibility that someone will three bet with a hidden monster, like trips or the made flush, I think calling and raising are pretty close here. One of the ways I handle situations like this is by calling if they bet fifth and betting if they check sixth.