Cold-calling 3 bets on flop

Arcturus · #1 08-20-2005, 12:08 AM

I froze up after the flop. I think my brain short circuited.

Both blinds are LAG. UTG+2 entered 3 hands earlier and had played all 3.

PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. MP1 posts a blind of $0.05.
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 (poster) checks, 1 fold, Hero raises, 2 folds, SB 3-bets, BB calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (13 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB bets, BB raises, UTG+2 3-bets, Hero calls, SB calls, BB caps, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls, SB calls.

What is this? I have TPGK and I have to decide whether to cold-call 3 bets or cap? I decided to call down unless one of my cards showed up on the turn or river.

Turn: (14.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB bets, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls, SB calls.

River: (18.50 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB bets, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls, SB folds.

Final Pot: 21.50 BB

By the time the river showed, I figured I was cooked. However, the pot was too big to fold. Did I play this right or should I have left the hand earlier?

numeri · #2 08-20-2005, 12:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Both blinds are LAG. UTG+2 entered 3 hands earlier and had played all 3.

[/ QUOTE ]
Are they aggressive post-flop as well as pre-flop? This makes a big difference. For sake of discussion, I'll assume they're all-around LAG.

preflop: Fine.

flop: Ugh. I have a hard time continuing here. Sure, SB and BB are LAG, but UTG+2 is also interested enough to 3-bet. I think we could find a fold here.

turn: OK, so you called with TPGK. When BB capped the flop and led the turn, I can't see you being good often enough to call down.

Aaron W. · #3 08-20-2005, 12:26 AM

Calling the flop almost commits you to seeing the river, and probably the showdown quite often. I'd just dump on the flop until I get a better read on the new guy.

Arcturus · #4 08-20-2005, 12:26 AM

To be honest, with the few hands I played against them, I didn't notice anything unusual about their postflop play. The blinds had about 50% VP$IP each, but that is over twenty hands.

numeri · #5 08-20-2005, 12:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
To be honest, with the few hands I played against them, I didn't notice anything unusual about their postflop play. The blinds had about 50% VP$IP each, but that is over twenty hands.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, 50% VP$IP a LAG does not make.

Since you haven't noticed anything unusual about their play, calling 3 bets on the flop with top pair sounds like a bad idea.

#6 08-20-2005, 12:52 AM

Calling the flop was a bad idea, calling the turn was a bad idea. The real problem here is that your pot odds of improving aren't even relevant, as any improvement to your hand will probably improve that of one or more of your opponents as well. Someone else probably has a queen, someone else may have 4 to the flush while you have only 3.

hemstock · #7 08-20-2005, 12:56 AM

Auto fold the flop.
You really HAVE to assume you are behind.
You are getting 19 to 3 which is 6.33 to 1.
You need 6 to 7 outs.
This is NOT a drawing hand. It's the kind of hand that you flop top pair and win unimproved most of the times. Not the case here. Muck it and be glad about it.

numeri · #8 08-20-2005, 12:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Calling the flop was a bad idea, calling the turn was a bad idea. The real problem here is that your pot odds of improving aren't even relevant, as any improvement to your hand will probably improve that of one or more of your opponents as well.

[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly. The only turn and river I'd like to see are A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and (something not pairing the board)[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. We definitely don't have the odds to draw to that!

TwoShedsJackson · #9 08-20-2005, 03:45 AM

I'd fold the flop. Unless these guys are insane there should be a QJ and/or AQ out there, and there's a flush draw and OESD draws too. The other Queens are not going to be outs and the Kings would be worth very little.

AussieBattler · #10 08-20-2005, 03:58 AM

grunch.

I play the same limit at stars and all too often my TPGK is no good due to suckouts but I think its pretty clear here that your beat. Given blinds are LAG it wouldnt surprise me to see one of them with a 2pr (Q4s is played often at 0.05) or a set of 4s that was overplayed preflop

anyway calling that flop means your going to the river at this limit.

after that river it seems clear to me your up against a set from BB and Im expecting a busted nutflush draw AKs from SB and some moderate top pr or low 2 pr from UTG+1 who fears the straight. still Im usually guilty of calling that river (its an overcall which makes it worse) just so I can have peace of mind and not tear out my hair when a pair of jacks wins after BB bluffed the river). Anyway Im sure Ill be shot down with my reads as its pretty tough at this limit where any two cards play [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

I cant wait to see what was shown. I still expect your beat to a set or a st8 (depending on what BB shows Ill be making a note on his preflop call)