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imaptone · #1 04-01-2005, 10:35 AM

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 2 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG calls, MP2 calls, MP3 caps, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (20.66 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP2 checks, MP3 bets, Hero raises, BB calls, UTG calls, MP2 folds, MP3 3-bets, Hero caps, BB calls, UTG calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (18.33 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP3 checks, Hero bets, BB calls, UTG calls, MP3 raises, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

River: (26.33 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP3 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 26.33 BB

As this hand was unfloding I was thinking about the chapter in SSH about two overpair hands. In retro spect I am wondering if I should have been thinking about the chapter on protecting my hand.
UTG has Vpip of 16% and a PFR of 6.5 (31 hands)
MP1 has VP of 44.5 and a PFR of 11(18 hands)
MP3 has a VP of 29 and a PFR of 17%( 58 hands)
BB has with VP of 25.5 and a PFR 6.5%( 47 hands)

DeeJ · #2 04-01-2005, 10:41 AM

UTG hits the flush and tries & misses a river check-raise.
MP3 is a bit laggy and maybe has TT/AK/JJ ? Tries it on?
BB has something like 75 or 97 and misses his straight. Or he could be on the flush check/raise too.

Hero may well be right to check behind on the river with so many people on a draw which 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] completes or assists. I play it the same, although if I win I wish I value bet the river, pat myself on back if I get beat [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

imaptone · #3 04-01-2005, 10:50 AM

I am wondering if people think that smooth calling the flop then raising the turn would be the proper play here since the pot is so large on the flop and almost any draw would be correct to call. How does holding the Ac change my decision?

Chris Dow · #4 04-01-2005, 11:05 AM

You should 3 bet the turn after getting cr'ed by MP3. The draws that BB and UTG are holding need to be charged 2 more. (Draws include QJ top pair draw and TT smaller pair draw fyi) At 15/30 if MP3 caps the turn I can finally believe I am behind. As the hand played out checking behind the river is obvious because you gave up on the turn (the way you reacted to MP3's cr on the turn suggests that you assume you're behind to him and that 7c didn't help you beat anything) If you took a 3-bet the turn line and MP3 didn't cap (or did cap but then checked river) I would also check behind there. What card can possibly be worse than the 7c? A lot of hands beating you, like straights and the weak flushes, are going to check but aren't folding. A bet on the river is -ev.

Chris Dow · #5 04-01-2005, 11:06 AM

Smooth calling the flop looks disastrous when the set up is perfect to force everyone else to come in for 2 cold if they want to continue.

imaptone · #6 04-01-2005, 11:20 AM

Given the size of the pot preflop, and my raise on the flop the next player is getting 12ish-1, then 13-1. With implied odds this makes almost any draw down 3 outs correct to call. If I raise the turn, there would be 12ish big bets in the pot when MP3 bets, I would put in 14 and 15 so the cold callers would be getting 7.5:1 and 8.5:1 making a few less draws correct to call. This is where my question comes from.

PokerProdigy · #7 04-01-2005, 11:25 AM

I may have bet the river but thats another story.

In this situation I think you definitely should have done what SSHE said and just call the flop, intending to raise the turn, because on the turn pretty much everybody is getting correct odds to draw to anything (if you're only able to get in one bet).

Chris Dow · #8 04-01-2005, 11:25 AM

Good question and well thought out. Here's my take though. If I can raise the flop making it two cold to jt and he mucks incorrectly, woohoo. There is the obvious just because they are correct to draw doesn't make it incorrect to charge them but you aren't arguing against that at all, what you are saying is that on the turn you can flat out make it incorrect for them to draw with the weakest holdings. While this point is valid and shows a good deal of thinking on your part, I don't think your typical Party 15/30 player is up in the poker stratosphere of knowledge with you here. (the worst thing that happens is the gutshot gets barely priced into drawing over and over again, in a very marginal situation for him, as you charge him the maximum, this isn't bad for you)

imaptone · #9 04-01-2005, 12:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I may have bet the river but thats another story.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm a puss.

crunchy1 · #10 04-01-2005, 12:53 PM

With 5 players in a capped PF pot - they're going to be getting odds to call with just about anything at any point in the hand. Your aggression on the flop is correct and it is for value. With this many players and the PF action you're far removed from being able to protect your hand at all. Ram and Jam and hope that your rockets hold up at showdown.