A9o in BB after utg raise and sb calls: Ed Miller says fold

Wynton · #1 10-12-2005, 10:45 AM

I'm rereading SSHE and noticed that, in the hand quizzes, Ed Miller recommends that you fold A9o in the bb, after utg raises and only the sb calls.

I realize that the advice is directed at full, loose games, but I'm not sure whether his advice would be different for six-max.

Essentially, he offers 3 reasons for folding: (1) The threat of domination is too great; (2) you are out of position, a disadvantage which is too great to overcome even if your opponent plays badly; and (3) the effect of the rake is magnified when the pot is short-handed.

The example does not stipulate whether these particular opponents are loose/passive, etc., though the book is obviously addressed to those types generally.

Playing six-max against generic opponents, what do you do with A9o here?

ALL1N · #2 10-12-2005, 10:49 AM

Fold is good.

RunDownHouse · #3 10-12-2005, 10:54 AM

What does he say to do with A9o after MPwhatever raises and only SB calls?

I really think there's a huge gap between UTG full and UTG short, and a concordant gap with what SB will call with in most sh games (crap, mostly).

I'm unsure how low I'd go; maybe A8?

Wynton · #4 10-12-2005, 10:59 AM

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What does he say to do with A9o after MPwhatever raises and only SB calls?

I really think there's a huge gap between UTG full and UTG short, and a concordant gap with what SB will call with in most sh games (crap, mostly).

I'm unsure how low I'd go; maybe A8?

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't noticed him address that particular situation.

I agree with you about the differences between the tables. But I'm not sure what my "default" play is here. I think that I usually call, without a read.

And I was particularly interested in Miller's comments about the rake. What do you think about that?

rory · #5 10-12-2005, 11:00 AM

fold it in 6 max too

GetThere1Time · #6 10-12-2005, 11:02 AM

I agree RunDown about the gap between UTG in full and short games. I'll always fold this when I play full but short it's read dependant for me on how light the PFR will come in and how well he plays postflop.

GetThere1Time · #7 10-12-2005, 11:03 AM

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fold it in 6 max too

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Even against a loose PFR getting 5:1?

DMBFan23 · #8 10-12-2005, 11:13 AM

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[ QUOTE ]
fold it in 6 max too

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Even against a loose PFR getting 5:1?

[/ QUOTE ]

THe crappy thing is, you will tend to lose more when you are behind because of domination, and if you hit the ace and he doesn't have one he will have position, which will make it tough for you to really get paid.

now if we're talking AJ where you can be the dominating one versus like AT or A9s or JQs or KJ, which are both common hands for an UTG to be raising, then we're in business. I would fold ATo as well but only because the raise came from UTG.

standard disclaimer; this is all IMO

GetThere1Time · #9 10-12-2005, 11:23 AM

I agree and I fold this all day against a reasonable player. I think my problem here, and my biggest 6-max issue in general, is that I just assume that the unknown 6-maxer is a complete donktard and never give them any credit for anything.

That being said, do you think there's a point where the PFR is so loose that this becomes a profitable call? Or does the risk of domination still make this an auto-fold? How bout the play of the small blind? If he'll dump in money when way behind, does he make the risk of domination worth taking?

Jgents · #10 10-12-2005, 11:26 AM

I call in 6max against the large percentage of players, except the tighest of the tighest opening UTG only with JJ+. UTG opening range for a standard opponent in full game is much more narrow than say same opponent in UTG spot in 6max.

IN 6max, you are dealing with 77+,A8s+,K9s+,QTs+,JTs,ATo+,KJo+,QJo in the UTG range a lot of times from typical opponents, making me call in this spot. I would love to hear more on this though.