Poorly played?

jen · #1 12-27-2002, 08:17 PM

15-30, loose-passive game.

I was in early position with 8 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] and limped. MP called. Solid, tricky pro, who I'd characterize as a semi-loose aggressive player (and had also been winning a lot), raised on the button. BB called. I called. MP called.

Flop: 8 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img]

BB checked. I bet. MP folded. Pro raised. BB folded.

Turn: [8 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img]] 3 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img]

I bet. Pro raised.

River: [8 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img]] 3 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] A [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img]

I checked. Pro bet. I thought for awhile and mucked.

Should I have gone into check-call mode post-flop? Or given that I bet the turn, should I have three-bet the turn? On the river, I couldn't think of a hand that I could reasonably beat (I would've called had the A not come), but in retrospect, I'm thinking that I should've made the crying call given the trickiness of the particular player that I was facing. Any thoughts?

David Ottosen · #2 12-27-2002, 08:46 PM

Folding preflop is certainly a very good option although if this game is as you described, it's defensible to play.

I prefer to checkraise the flop. In this situation, your bet and his raise don't mean a lot. He's likely to get you to pay off when behind and not get the cash when ahead. If you checkraise the flop and he 3-bets, then you can assume you're screwed and call the third bet and hope to improve on the turn (otherwise fold).

When you stop and go and he raises again, you should fold the turn.

Ed Miller · #3 12-27-2002, 09:05 PM

I think you should muck this hand in EP, especially with a solid, tricky pro on the button. Part of the value of the medium suited connectors is flopping a pair and having it hold up (e.g. this flop)... and it is much harder to play (as you found out, as a result of you posting this hand) out of position.

I think you need to muck to the turn raise. He might be putting a move on you, but what can you do? The rainbow board makes it less likely that he is putting a move on you with a flush draw... so basically he could have JTs (hopefully a pro wouldn't raise JTo on the button).. but otherwise I think you are in trouble. Semi-bluffing is so powerful because sometimes there is just nothing you can do... you simply have to muck the better hand.

Once you commit to calling on the turn, though, I don't think you can muck on the river. You called the turn because you put your opponent on a semi-bluff... and it looks like any draw he might have had didn't get there. You have to call one more bet here.

In the future, though, do yourself a favor and muck these nasty hands in EP.

Ray Zee · #4 12-28-2002, 12:04 AM

you are not getting anywhere leading into players and calling raises with a pair of eights. you need to look into how you can win the pot. on the turn you should have checked called and tried to pick off a bluff on the river or ideally since you bet out and he raised you needed to three bet him and let him know you had three nines, and maybe he would have folded. same price as if you paid him off which you should have with all those bets in there. sadly you put them in a pot you didnt belong at any street really.

mikelow · #5 12-28-2002, 12:41 AM

Preflop, its close. Was this game really loose-passive?

You need to get a better handle on what kind of game you're in. On this hand, once you go to the river, might as well call.

cero_z · #6 12-29-2002, 04:08 AM

I don't like your call pre-flop in EP with cards this small. The play of this hand makes me wonder how loose-passive this game really was (2 early limps, and everyone folds to the button?). But I like your turn bet, as pros are often going to go for free cards with 77, KQs, etc., and if he's tricky, his turn raise ain't the end of the world, either. I don't think you should 3-bet the turn as a bluff, though, unless he's a very good player and doesn't think you are. So, your play is fine so far, but once you call the turn, you ought to pay off the river. True, the Ace is the worst card in the deck for you, but he probably knows that, too.

PokerPrince · #7 12-29-2002, 08:29 AM

"Might as well" thinking doesn't make you money in poker I'm afraid to say.

PokerPrince

jen · #8 12-31-2002, 06:36 PM

I like the check-raise the flop idea.

But I don't like folding to a three-bet on the flop against this particular player. I've played with him several times before, and he's very aggressive. At this particular juncture, he had large stacks of chips in front of him, making him more inclined towards aggressiveness.

I've had top pair against him before, where he three-bet my flop check-raise and checked down through the river. And, previously, in that particular session, I got the distinct impression that he made me fold the better hand with a semi-bluff raise on the turn.

jen · #9 12-31-2002, 06:43 PM

Thanks for the response. I agree that I shouldn't have been in the hand in the first place.

I still think he had overcards. When pressed (by others at the table), he said that he "got there on the river". My impression was that he was telling the truth, but you never know. Given that, I'm guessing he would've checked the turn had I checked. And also, that he would've folded to a three-bet on the turn.

jen · #10 12-31-2002, 06:49 PM

I folded the river, because the only hand that I could see him playing this way other than overcards (with an ace) or overpair is JTs (which I thought unlikely given the fact that there are only four ways to have JTs versus the number of combinations of overpair and overcards with an ace).