$11's Good Push or Not (6 Hands)

Dr_Jeckyl_00 · #1 06-30-2005, 09:46 AM

Lost 4 games last night (I think 3 of 4 losses due to bad play). Played my usual tight game early, tried to steal when blinds increased. Some hands I think I played correctly, some were definitely wrong, IMO. Please share your thoughts.

Game 1 - Consistently having trouble playing KQs (& other high suited connectors)...

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (10 handed) converter

UTG+1 (t265)
UTG+2 (t1075)
Hero (t790)
MP2 (t1130)
MP3 (t545)
CO (t985)
Button (t1385)
SB (t1200)
BB (t380)
UTG (t245)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls t30, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls t30, Hero calls t30, 3 folds, Button calls t30, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t180) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, BB bets t60, UTG calls t60, UTG+2 calls t60, Hero raises to t760 (All-In), Button folds, SB folds, BB calls t290 (All-In), UTG calls t155 (All-In), UTG+2 folds.

Turn: (t1565) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players, 3 all-in)

River: (t1565) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players, 3 all-in)

Final Pot: t1565

Hand 2 - Forced this as result of previous hand...

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) converter

MP3 (t175)
CO (t895)
Hero (t365)
SB (t1205)
BB (t545)
UTG (t925)
UTG+1 (t1535)
MP1 (t1215)
MP2 (t1140)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
5 folds, CO calls t30, Hero raises to t365 (All-In), 2 folds, CO calls t335.

Flop: (t775) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: (t775) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t775) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t775

Game 2 - Probably should have checked, folded, but tried to steal... poor risk-return in hind sight...

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (6 handed) converter

Hero (t940)
UTG (t925)
MP (t685)
CO (t630)
Button (t2300)
SB (t2520)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP calls t100, 2 folds, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (t300) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t840 (All-In), MP calls t585 (All-In), SB folds.

Turn: (t1725) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: (t1725) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: t1725

Game 3 - This seems correct...

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (7 handed) converter

SB (t1255)
BB (t1155)
Hero (t800)
MP1 (t2645)
MP2 (t825)
CO (t435)
Button (t885)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
Hero raises to t800 (All-In), MP1 calls t800, 5 folds.

Flop: (t1825) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: (t1825) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t1825) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t1825

Game 4
Hand 1 - Should have pushed here...

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (7 handed) converter

Hero (t490)
BB (t1750)
UTG (t1385)
MP1 (t470)
MP2 (t1465)
CO (t1865)
Button (t575)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
4 folds, Button calls t50, 1 fold, BB checks.

Flop: (t125) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Button bets t125, BB folds.

Final Pot: t250

Hand 2 - Should have folded...

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (7 handed) converter

Hero (t465)
SB (t1700)
BB (t1385)
UTG (t470)
MP1 (t1465)
MP2 (t1865)
CO (t650)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
3 folds, CO calls t100, Hero raises to t465 (All-In), 1 fold, BB calls t365, CO folds.

Flop: (t1080) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: (t1080) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t1080) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t1080

junkmail3 · #2 06-30-2005, 10:57 AM

1. KQs - what's the hurry? TPGK, I might raise, but all in? that's just too dangerous.

2. ATo - Fine. I don't mind pushing, short stacked.

3. 95s - Why? Chill out.

4. 66 - UTG ... with 5BB ... ... it's a bit early, but may be alright being that you're on a short stack. but there are a lot of people close to your chip count. I might throw this away actually. I'd rather steal from the CO or Button with a worse hand.

5. Kxs - push preflop if you're playing.

6. 84o ... why? You're getting called.

(judging from this post and others) I think you tend to have trouble later in the tournaments playing a short stack. But, it looks like there is good reason that you have a short stack late.

I think you need to chill earlier on and play better hands and improve your postflop play. I think you're losing too many chips playing marginal hands.

For what it's worth.

Keep posting hands, and don't be discouraged by the fact that many people wouldn't have made 1/2 of the plays you did. You (and I) are here to learn. And I could be way off in my analysis.

Dr_Jeckyl_00 · #3 06-30-2005, 11:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]

I think you need to chill earlier on and play better hands and improve your postflop play. I think you're losing too many chips playing marginal hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

I no longer have post flop play. I seem to be folding or pushing. Much of what I read on 2+2 seems to advocate push or fold, and push w/ any 2 while you still have FE (but before you have no FE) and have position... assuming that you're not getting good cards. In these hands I felt that I still had FE (but would not for long), and I had position. If I don't make a move soon I will lose my FE and blind out, unless I get some good cards (and action... I had gotten AA, QQ, AK earlier, but everyone folded to my 3xbb bet). I used to blind out, now I get called out on my steal attemps. My 'see flop %' is typically 10%-20% L1-4 so I play tight... but I guess maybe choosing to push w/ position is not as good as pushing OOP w/ somewhat better hands. Thanks for you advice.

wrongshui · #4 06-30-2005, 11:40 AM

I don't like the all in with the kq... in 11s, people wont drop their open endeds or flush draws as easily as in 30s+.
Blinds are low, a decent sized reraise will let you know where you're at on the turn.

95, you were still in ok shape, why push? Pick a better spot.

84o... WTF? Don't push with this hand, even on the button, you're going to be drawing dead too much of the time.

Whats ur nick on party if you dont mind me asking? i recognize the username for some reason.

junkmail3 · #5 06-30-2005, 11:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]

I no longer have post flop play. I seem to be folding or pushing. Much of what I read on 2+2 seems to advocate push or fold, and push w/ any 2 while you still have FE (but before you have no FE) and have position

[/ QUOTE ]

This is true but is often over stated. In the situation of 84o, specifically, you came over the top in a situation where, if you hit the BB you would have no FE. However, seeing that CO had called T100, you come over the top for T465, now BB has to call T365 to win T765 (2:1) and can do so with moderate cards. If he folds, CO is in the same situation. And since he's limping, he has something, and that something should be worth 2:1 to continue.

But since BB called, now CO has 3:1, and should call anything.

So, basically, you're pushing in a spot that, with terrible cards, two people should call you, and they did.

So, I would wait until the next hand, and at least get my money in when it's folded to me, or I have an A or K.

[ QUOTE ]
I used to blind out, now I get called out on my steal attemps.

[/ QUOTE ]

What I gather from this post and others is that you could pick your steals in better positions.

[ QUOTE ]

but I guess maybe choosing to push w/ position is not as good as pushing OOP w/ somewhat better hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not necessarily true. I would rather open push QJo in late position 7 handed with 6xBB than I would push 55 UTG in the same situation.

pooh74 · #6 06-30-2005, 11:50 AM

I stopped after the first hand because this hand shows prefectly a huge leak in your game.

A basic concept you need to nail down is how to change your play based on circumstances. KQs is a good hand and DEFINITELY worthy of a limp here...at a very loose passive table, maybe even a raise to isolate, to mix it up too. But, you limped and had a multiway pot with 6 PLAYERS!! There is no reason to believe you have the best had right now...raise to 180 to see where you stand perhaps...

My major point is, when you limp for 30 with 6 other players, you are not looking for TP any more to get your chips in...now you have to be mUCH more careful because ANYTHING could be out there. IF you raised PF and get one caller, TP2K becomes a great hand. On the bubble, it a pushworthy hand...but not here. You need to adjust to your surroundings and really have to not get overexcited in this situation. You will almost never get called by a worse hand and are risking your tourney on a relatively small pot relative to your stack.

GtrHtr · #7 06-30-2005, 11:51 AM

Hand 1 - fold PF. You are having trouble with suited connected face cards because you shouldn't be playing them at this level. If this is your usual tight play, there's your leak.

Hand 2 - fold PF.

Hand 3 - check fold.

Hand 4 - either way, but I'd fold PF. Your stack is fine, you don't need to make a move here even going into the blinds.

Hand 5 (Kh6h) - fold PF.

Last hand - look at the stack sizes as they relate to you. Now calculate the BB's pot odds for calling you. What is his range for calling? Wait for a hand to double up. Fold PF.

junkmail3 · #8 06-30-2005, 11:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 2 - fold PF.

[/ QUOTE ]

What are you waiting for with less than 10xBB on the button?

GtrHtr · #9 06-30-2005, 12:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Hand 2 - fold PF.

[/ QUOTE ]

What are you waiting for with less than 10xBB on the button?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2 - Forced this as result of previous hand...

[/ QUOTE ]

He's probably lucky he got called. Its level 2 with 10 players. Do you think he'll get a better hand than A10o in the next 20 hands or so? Is he going to lose a lot of FE in the next 20 hands or so? He needs to double up. Not start pushing every hand.

He needs to double up.

pooh74 · #10 06-30-2005, 12:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1 - fold PF. You are having trouble with suited connected face cards because you shouldn't be playing them at this level. If this is your usual tight play, there's your leak.

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding this is bad...this is an easy limp...I would go as far to say its a leak not to being playing these hands in good position with so many limpers.

Again...disclaimer...i play with 1500 starting stack.