Can "Setting the dice" actually work?

[PokerDork]

I'm sure many of us have read/seen/heard of people who claim that they can throw the dice at the craps table in such a way, that they can make the outcome less than random. I once saw something on the Travel Channel where someone was talking about it and the pit boss at the casino said something along the lines of "We welcome are guests to use whatever strategy they would like to try to get the best out of our games." And, that dice throwing is indeed not cheating. I've never heard a pit boss say the same about card-counting, so obviously the casino doesn't believe this works. Part of me thinks that people who think they are good at this suffer from gamblers' optimism, but at the same time, if you always took max odds, and set the dice on numbers that can only be rolled one or two ways, i.e. 2,3,4,9,10,11,12 you wouldn't have to be that much better than random to gain an edge. I do not claim to use this system myself, nor do I have any real interest in learning, I was just wondering what people thought.

[playersare]

it's been 43 years since Edward Thorp's "Beat The Dealer" was published, with the first publicly available BJ system proven to give the player a mathematical advantage over the house. and now in the current day there is a wider selection of good strategy available to anyone inexpensively, or even free.

despite all the information available, blackjack remains one of the most profitable table games in the casino. 99% of players I've seen still don't even know correct basic strategy, much less have the ability to use and take advantage of even the simplest level 1 count like KO or Hi-Lo.

the thing with card counting in BJ and dice control in craps is that, even when implemented properly, still may not overcome enough of the built-in house advantage to make it worthwhile. and when it becomes +EV, it may only be for a short while during the session, or still be subject to volatility and standard deviation, and the casino may decide to 86 you on their own whether or not you've actually made money on them.

that being said, there is currently less heat for advantage craps players than for blackjack, and major authors like Frank Scoblete and Stanford Wong have been promoting this game more than previously. but what makes sense mathematically and what actually results in real games is still under debate IMO.

a wide majority of people here on 2+2, of course, will tell you that poker is where's it's truly at.

[other1]

'Can it work?' I think, yes, it /can/.

Is it worth it for 99.9999% of people to try.. I doubt it.

Read one of Frank Scoblete's books and you'll learn more than you care to about setting the dice. While I think in theory you could influence the outcome of rolls slightly, I think you'd be hard pressed even with a lot of practice, to produce results that were better than you could expect occasionally from simple variance. I'll stick to hoping to get lucky.

[Nottom]

The history channel just showed an episode of "Breaking Vegas" that dealt with dice control. It should be on again in a few hours and will likely be rerun on the weekend as well.

I think its a very interesting concept, but would require a huge time investment (and a personal craps table) which most people just don't have.

[Nomad84]

There was a new Breaking Vegas on tonight about this. It comes on again at midnight central time. Frank Scoblete and Stanford Wong were both on it. It was about a guy named Dominic who was very good at controlling the dice. Apparently he could go 30+ rolls without hitting a seven and could do so regularly. Towards the end of the show they said that the stickman was giving him a hard time and trying to break his concentration so he bet $100 on a hard 10 hopping (I think that is what it was called) so he had to roll two 5s on the next roll. He hit it and won $3k. Apparently he and Frank Scoblete won $27000 in 53 minutes that night. Interesting show.

[other1]

Yup.. building a home set up and practicing is a must. 'The Dominator' gives classes in dice control.. www.goldentouchcraps.com

Scoblete talks about building a home practice rig in some of his books. It's actually not that difficult (not that I've done it, but if I had a garage and some power tools..). The way you shoot the dice when trying to control them is with a lot of loft and very little tumble after they hit the wall, so you don't need a full table, just a single wall with some diamond rubber on it and a landing area that has the right felt and bounce.

[adios]

[ QUOTE ]
The way you shoot the dice when trying to control them is with a lot of loft and very little tumble after they hit the wall

[/ QUOTE ] True story. Back in the 80's I played alot of craps in Vegas before I discovered poker. I received a lot of flack, much more than I would have ever expected, from a pit critter when I would throw the dice with a lot of loft during a particular session. I've always wondered why that guy was so rude and ugly during that craps session. Now I know.

[mhcmarty]

Does anybody know of a web site that shows (for free) the dice "sets" for various desired outcomes?

[other1]

People who loft the dice will sometimes get scrutiny. People who don't hit the back wall get a lot of scrutiny. People who set the dice get some scrutiny. People who seem to be particularly lucky will get a lot of scrutiny. It depends.. the crew can usually tell someone who just doesn't know what they are doing versus someone who knows exactly what they are doing. I was setting the dice this past weekend, and I was having a pretty lucky session of shooting, and I noticed the pitboss was watching very carefuly what I was doing with the dice. I don't even think that me setting them had an effect, its more habit/superstition for me, but they are always on the lookout.

[other1]

http://www.dicecoach.com/dicesets.asp

My preferred set is the 3V. The 'correct' way to throw this set is..

Set the dice so that the point of the V is away from you.. Think of it as a pyramid. /\ Put your thumb on the base of the pyramid and your middle and ring finger on the point of the pyramid. The idea is to loft the dice at the back wall so that you have no/minimal rotation and when they bounce off the wall they rotate on axis and stop so you will always hit one of the numbers you want. Of course if you think about how dice are set up (opposite faces=7) then one extra rotation of one die will always give you a 7. It's not as easy at it sounds, and it don't sound easy.. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]