Unbridled aggression with bad two pair

[Bartholow]

I seem to recall that the table was pretty loose aggressive at this point. Seat 3 seemed to be playing very aggressively in too many pots, but
I hadn't seen him show down anything that looked bad. Seat 2, the bring-in, is definitely loose, the other two guys are relative unknowns but like I said the whole table seemed loose.

I have a feeling you guys will think I was on crack. I was partially influenced by the fact that seat 5 was going to have to go all in. Also, anyone bet the river?

7 Card Stud High ($20/$40), Ante $2, Bring-In $5 (hand converter)

3rd Street - (0.60 SB)

Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 2: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___brings-in___calls
Seat 3: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___completes
Seat 4: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 6: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls

4th Street - (5.60 SB)

Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets___raises
Seat 2: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___raises___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks___raises___calls
Seat 6: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks___folds

5th Street - (8.80 BB)

Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 3: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets___calls

6th Street - (14.80 BB)

Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 3: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks___calls (all-in)

River - (17.25 BB)

Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___???
Seat 3: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] xx___checks
Seat 5: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] xx___all-in

Total pot: (17.25 BB)

[PoorLawyer]

[ QUOTE ]
I seem to recall that the table was pretty loose aggressive at this point. Seat 3 seemed to be playing very aggressively in too many pots, but
I hadn't seen him show down anything that looked bad. Seat 2, the bring-in, is definitely loose, the other two guys are relative unknowns but like I said the whole table seemed loose.

I have a feeling you guys will think I was on crack. I was partially influenced by the fact that seat 5 was going to have to go all in. Also, anyone bet the river?

7 Card Stud High ($20/$40), Ante $2, Bring-In $5 (hand converter)

3rd Street - (0.60 SB)

Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 2: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___brings-in___calls
Seat 3: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___completes
Seat 4: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 6: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls

4th Street - (5.60 SB)

Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets___raises
Seat 2: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___raises___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks___raises___calls
Seat 6: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks___folds

5th Street - (8.80 BB)

Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 3: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets___calls

6th Street - (14.80 BB)

Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 3: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks___calls (all-in)

River - (17.25 BB)

Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___???
Seat 3: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] xx___checks
Seat 5: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] xx___all-in

Total pot: (17.25 BB)

[/ QUOTE ]

in my 1/2 or 2/4 game if the guy wasn't all in I would check but since he is all-in I would probably bet in the hope that I at least have seat 3 beat so that I can get something back if the all-in guy has me. I don't know where I got this theory from and in typing it, it doesn't seem to be grounded in a whole lot of good theory or common sense.

[Bartholow]

No, I think that does have some common sense going for it. It looks like seat 3 was on flush draw (or maybe straight draw), and he might have to bet out if he had hit. So it could be good to bet and hope for a crying call if he made one big pair. At the same time, those cards are all at least somewhat dead, and somehow I was paranoid that he could checkraise a good flush.

At any rate, your general idea is good I think. I just couldn't decide whether to apply it here.

Regardless of that, any thoughts on my going crazy early with 2 bad pair?

[PoorLawyer]

4th I like. You probably have the best hand at that point and are letting everyone else know it and getting $$ in the pot in case you fill too. On 5th I would probably just call because it looks like they are drawing and after 4th they are probably not going anywhere. OTOH they may have put you on a flush draw on 4th which makes this hand all the more interesting. your raise on 5th says to me that you already have a made hand. I don't have the 20/40 mentality though. If you take the 0's off that table I probably do the same at 2/4 on 4th but then excpect it to be called down the rest of the way and pray another spade doesnt come out. I'd like to hear what others think on 5th.

[jon_1van]

I don't know about this one..

I'd have to be pretty sure seat 5 was a loon before I just didn't fold 4th to the check/3-bet. You have 3 "real" outs and JTs guy already seems like he's got at least JJ...so your edge can't be ginormous (think giant-enormous)

[djr]

[ QUOTE ]
It looks like seat 3 was on flush draw (or maybe straight draw)

[/ QUOTE ]

Would he really complete 3rd with a flush draw in that position? I could see it if he had the ace of spades in the hole (e.g. ATJ), but we know on 4th he doesn't have that. Then again, you said he's really aggressive.

On 4th, I'd be really concerned that seat 5 checked/3bet. He's really not that close to going all-in that he would do that at this point without having something. I'd figure him for at least a pair of aces if not two pair. Given that, I think the 4th street cap and 5th street raise are just wasting money. WHen you raise on 5th you're still giving seat 3 6:1 odds to call. If he's on a straight/flush draw, he's calling (correctly) not folding.

On the river, I think its time to check. Given you've been pushing the hand hard this whole time I'd say he's more likely than normal to CR if he hit a flush or straight.

[Jeffage]

I agree with you if the 5 seat wasn't almost all in. Against a normal player, this play would indicated rolled up trips (or buried aces that tripped on 4th). But against someone going all in, it could easily mean aces only or any pair.

Jeff

[Bartholow]

I know what "ginormous" means, thank you very much [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img].

Anyway, yeah, thought you'd all think I was crazy. I guess I just think people do a lot of nutty things on 3rd and 4th in these games. If I got raised again from 5th on I'd strongly consider just folding.

Also, when you say my edge can't be big, does that take into account the money already in pot? It is becoming significant enough that folding the best hand would be pretty bad right?

[Jeffage]

I think you played this hand well. I would probably bet the river since there is some thin value in case the all in player has you smoked. You may get called by one pair by the remaining player, yet he is ulikely to raise with two pair that beats you. So, I don't mind the bet. But with the one player all in, if you dogged it, it's no biggie really. Your aggressive play on all other streets is mandatory.

Note that if the 5-seat wasn't shortstacked, you might be able to fold 4th when he check 3 bets (indicating rolled up or turned trips). But since he's all in, it could easily be just a pair of aces or just something he wanted to run out. So you must play on.

Jeff

[Bartholow]

I won, but that doesn't mean anything. Seat 3 indeed had a flush draw that missed, seat 5 had just a pair of fives with 2 overcards. Given the relative positions I'm having a hard time coming up with a real justification for waiting till later to play aggressively, but I'm not positive I like my play either.