When to raise a draw?

[SmallFish]

Hello,

I have a question regarding draws. When is it correct to raise and when is it correct to just call a drawing hand?

For example: I post in the cutoff and I am dealt a 10 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

The flop comes up with 2 hearts and I have a flush draw.
Lets say there are 5 people that see the flop and the guy in LP bets and It's now up to me, Is raising or calling best here?

If i raise i knock people out and get a free card and if the flush hits I won't make as much, but If I call I keep the others in and I lose more if I don't hit my flush because I lost the free card opportunity.

Another Example

Lets say I am dealt K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I see the flop with 4 others
The flop is Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

I bet, the person to my immedite left raises me, 2 others call and it is up to me again, Is this a raise or call here
and why?

If I reraise and don't hit my straight I have lost more than if I had just called, But if I re-raise I will gain 3 extra bets if the straight hits.

How do you calculate when it is best to pump a drawing hand or just become a clling station until it hits?

I am familair with outs pot odds and implied odds and can calculate them no problem but how do situations like this determine If a reraise or just calling is more profitable?

[PuckNPoker]

I absolutely recommend either Getting Started in Holdem (more basic but still of value) or Small Stakes Holdem (lots of good advanced stuff, much more concentrated on post flop play) by Ed Miller to answer these type of questions in more detail than I ever could.

That being said. The concept you are missing is called pot equity. Lets say on a flush draw you will win the pot 35% of the time, that means that over 1/3 of the time you win all those bets in the pot. If for every bet you put in 2 or more bets also go in you are making money. With a lot of people in the hand (especially calling station types who will call down with anything) it is best to raise your strong draws since you will get maximum value when you hit them.

I've simplified it a lot, and probably not presented it very well. But in the instances you provided I would raise, you could win with making something other than your straight or flush draw (in the straight example what if someone had K2o and folded to your raise and the river came a King letting you beat a guys AQ, you "cleaned up some outs" by raising) and if your straight/flush draw comes in and all those people call you've won a huge pot.

[playersare]

you raise all legitimate draws for any combination of:
- getting a free card next street
- clearing outs to your overcards
- force out lesser draws which can still beat you
- build a pot you have a high chance of winning

smooth calling a draw is only strategic when you hold the absolute nuts if you hit. in your first hand example, you should raise with T8s because you want to knock out anyone holding a single heart jack through ace. if you don't and you get another heart on the turn, those players will stay in and still have 7 outs to beat you on the river. if you held the A8s, then you can just call in hopes that players behind you will overcall with lesser hands. never give free cards unless you already have the best possible hand and want someone else to draw to a good second best hand.

in the second example, you shouldn't bet the flop with so many other players to go. instead, check-raise and force players to your left to cold call two bets or fold. if you bet and are raised, then probably best to call and see what the turn and river bring. whatever your opponent is raising, you will not be able to get him out of the hand so draw as cheaply as possible. if he bets the turn and you miss the river draw, fold. if he checks and gets a free card, then you can try bluffing the river and fold w/o showdown if he raises.

playing heads-up on a draw, you want to invest as little as possible before you make your hand. multiway, you can press your 4-flushes and 4-straights harder if you can win auxiliary bets from players who drop out or call with less.

[PuckNPoker]

These are a good quiz to help you start getting a feel for how to play hands (includes draws):
http://www.cgtv.com/games/index.shtml

Click on Ed Millers mug. At the end of the quiz there is a link to more quizzes.

[AmarilloJim1]

What about this?

I would raise, not to beef up the pot, but to elimate a loose player holding the ace or king of hearts. If there is a runner runner heart, it would be a bad loss. I think 10 8 suited with 5 people in the pot is scary. It is not a guarteed win, hence you wouldn't win 35% of the time.

??

[SheridanCat]

[ QUOTE ]

I would raise, not to beef up the pot, but to elimate a loose player holding the ace or king of hearts. If there is a runner runner heart, it would be a bad loss. I think 10 8 suited with 5 people in the pot is scary. It is not a guarteed win, hence you wouldn't win 35% of the time.


[/ QUOTE ]

Personally, I'm happy to have the guy with Ah or Kh in there chasing the runner-runner. I would not raise to knock players out. If I'm first, I'll check and hope someone bets behind me. If I'm last and someone has bet early and I think everyone would call my raise, I'd raise.

In the four-flush example with 5 players in the hand, every bet going into the pot is, theoretically, making me money with my flush draw. I want to get bets into the pot and, hopefully, keep as many players around as I can.

Will I sometimes run into a bigger flush? Yep, but not enough to worry about. Also, if the other players really are loose, you're not going to knock them out anyway.

Regards,

T

[jedi]

As with everything, it depends.

For a general rule of thumb for me, it depends on how big the pot is and what my actual draw is.

For example, if I had A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and I raised pre-flop, I'm getting several callers at the low limits. The flop might come down 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. No matter where the bet comes from, I'm raising. If the bet comes from my immediate right, I'm happy to knock out a hand like A6 and clean up some outs, protecting my hand in the process. The point being that I have not only a flush draw, but 2 overcards in a big pot.

If you have something like KT on a QJx flop in an unraised pot, you wouldn't want to knock players out as much. Now you have only 1 overcard with your straight draw. You can still bet for value if checked to, but I wouldn't raise if it will make more people face a double bet. You can raise for value if the raise came from your left since people will be calling for 1 bet instead of 2.

Lower flush draws are the same. You have less to protect. Any bets and raises should be value bets, not bets to knock people out of the pot.

[fireman664]

[ QUOTE ]
Hello,

I have a question regarding draws. When is it correct to raise and when is it correct to just call a drawing hand?

For example: I post in the cutoff and I am dealt a 10 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

The flop comes up with 2 hearts and I have a flush draw.
Lets say there are 5 people that see the flop and the guy in LP bets and It's now up to me, Is raising or calling best here?

If i raise i knock people out and get a free card and if the flush hits I won't make as much, but If I call I keep the others in and I lose more if I don't hit my flush because I lost the free card opportunity.

Another Example

Lets say I am dealt K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I see the flop with 4 others
The flop is Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

I bet, the person to my immedite left raises me, 2 others call and it is up to me again, Is this a raise or call here
and why?

If I reraise and don't hit my straight I have lost more than if I had just called, But if I re-raise I will gain 3 extra bets if the straight hits.

How do you calculate when it is best to pump a drawing hand or just become a clling station until it hits?

I am familair with outs pot odds and implied odds and can calculate them no problem but how do situations like this determine If a reraise or just calling is more profitable?

[/ QUOTE ]


In your first example, since you are in between the raiser and the rest of the field, you would get more equity by just calling, and encouraging others to continue (if you had outs to protect, such as over cards, you might raise to limit the field)

if the raiser had been in EP, and there were several callers by the time it got to you and your flush draw, then you would want to raise to get more money in the pot (you would have excellent pot equity)


In your second example (dont play K10o btw) you have an overcard that is worth protecting, and an open ended str8 draw. In your scenario, I just call the flop raise, with the intention of betting on 4th street WANTING a raise from the original raiser, thus forcing the rest of the field to a tough decision of calling 2 big bets cold. This should even force a hand like AK to fold, thus making your hand good if you river a K.

again, all this is avoided with not playing KTo.

debate