Ciaffone's PL and NL poker

kurosh · #1 01-06-2005, 05:29 AM

Everyone says this is a good book... but it recommends something horrid IMHO. It keeps saying you want to go all-in with big draws off the flop. That's HORRIBLE advice. It doesn't even mention pot odds regarding it. Do they want you to go in as an underdog??!

grapes · #2 01-06-2005, 08:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone says this is a good book... but it recommends something horrid IMHO. It keeps saying you want to go all-in with big draws off the flop. That's HORRIBLE advice. It doesn't even mention pot odds regarding it. Do they want you to go in as an underdog??!

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree... I think you are misunderstanding what they meant and/or the reasoning behind it.

The idea, from my memory of the book, is that raising all-in is often preferable to making a smaller bet on the flop, for several reasons.

First, think about what likely happens on the turn if you still have chips: either your draw missed and you now have half the outs, and have little read on your opponent's hand if he just called the flop, OR you make your straight/flush but the board and your bet practically give away your hand. The idea applies more often to when you are in early position (position is even more crucial in big bet poker, but being all-in eliminates this disadvantage) and more to flush draws than straight draws (it's usually more obvious to opponents when you hit, so you're less likely to collect if/when you do hit).

The whole book seems to be geared to much tougher opposition than you see often see today, now that everyone plays NL... the type you would have seen in the higher limit cash games the authors talk about when the playing population was probably about 1% of what it is now. A lot of ideas, like this one, don't apply, or at least not as often, when your opponents call too much or otherwise make more mistakes.

The play is a semi-bluff, not a value bet. Their whole point is that you don't need nearly the pot odds you would to call all-in as you do to bet all-in. You are hoping (or indifferent) your opponent(s) folds, but still have a good chance to table the best hand if you do get called.

I've also heard only good things about this book from others - until recently, it was the only book on big bet games that I thought was worth having.

BradleyT · #3 01-06-2005, 09:40 AM

Big Bet Poker != Party NL. You don't have much fold equity at the party lower limit games.

binions · #4 01-06-2005, 11:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone says this is a good book... but it recommends something horrid IMHO. It keeps saying you want to go all-in with big draws off the flop. That's HORRIBLE advice. It doesn't even mention pot odds regarding it. Do they want you to go in as an underdog??!

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't recall the passage you refer to. I do know that SuperSystem advocates playing draws strongly against players who can lay down a hand. Two ways to win - they fold or you hit.

In addition, the big draws are favorites with 2 cards to come. A 15 out straight + flush draw has a 54% chance to get there with 2 cards to come. A pair + flush draw has 14 outs. 14 outs is 50% with 2 to come. Something like KQ diamonds with a board of Jd Td blank could have 21 outs (2 overs + flush + straight). Big favorite to hit with 2 to come.

As I recall, Ciaffone advocates betting the non-nut draws on the flop (under the 2 ways to win theory), and seeing the turn with the nut draws (where you might make some money with flush over flush for example).

jakethebake · #5 01-06-2005, 12:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone says this is a good book... but it recommends something horrid IMHO. It keeps saying you want to go all-in with big draws off the flop. That's HORRIBLE advice. It doesn't even mention pot odds regarding it. Do they want you to go in as an underdog??!

[/ QUOTE ]
This is also Doyle's advice in SuperSystem. True you may be a dog, but ONLY IF YOU GET CALLED. You have two chances to win the pot. Either suck out or he may fold right there.

spadeclub99 · #6 01-06-2005, 01:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Everyone says this is a good book... but it recommends something horrid IMHO. It keeps saying you want to go all-in with big draws off the flop. That's HORRIBLE advice. It doesn't even mention pot odds regarding it. Do they want you to go in as an underdog??!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is also Doyle's advice in SuperSystem. True you may be a dog, but ONLY IF YOU GET CALLED. You have two chances to win the pot. Either suck out or he may fold right there.

[/ QUOTE ]

It also sets up the same move when you flop a set. You are much more likely to get action b/c your opponents have to consider that you are drawing and do not have a made hand.

Beavis68 · #7 01-06-2005, 01:37 PM

The reason for it is that with two cards to come, these big draws are ~50/50 or a favorite against most hands, and at worst a 1:2 dog.

Daliman · #8 01-06-2005, 01:56 PM

It seems all the other posts have the right idea. You are specifically looking to get people to fold and take it down on the flop, but with an uberdraw, you are rarely in bad shape even if he does call.

kurosh · #9 01-06-2005, 02:34 PM

Well he's not just talking about big draws. He says even just a plain flush draw is fine. He doesn't make it clear enough that a lot of your equity is from the other player folding. Massive overbets with only a flush draw is begging to be called by made hands that kill you.

Beavis68 · #10 01-06-2005, 07:49 PM

I don't remember that, do you have the page numbers? I remember a flush and two ovecards, but not just a flush.

To tell you the truth though, I really didn't think the book was very good. Very little info and poorly written. It does leave a lot to the reader to figure out.

And who the hell play london lowball?