Another questionable hand

Lestat · #1 03-14-2005, 03:41 PM

Maybe I'm getting over-aggressive with my draws. Maybe I'm also paying off too much. I might not have had to pay this one off, but did anyway.

I limped after 1 weak limper with Ac,9c. Another weak player behind me limped.

The flop came 632 with two clubs.

The bb (a reasonable player from what I can tell- in fact, you guys know him as uraknobgoblr ), bet, 1st limper folded, I raised, weak player cold-called, bb re-raised, I capped, weak player called two cold again.

The turn was an off 7. bb bet, I called, weak player behind called.

The river was an ace and the bb bet again. Now I KNOW a pair of aces is no good here. But the pot is laying me $370 to $30 on a call. I'm not at all worried about the weak player behind me. I called and sure enough the bb showed me 45 for the flopped straight.

Did I play this hand poorly? I think my flop play was reasonable. Even if I knew the bb had me beat, I think I should still raise to pressure the weak player behind me. If he folds, maybe it improves my chances. If he doesn't fold, I am profiting from his calls. Although it become more likely with the bb's 3-bet that my overcards are no good, I can't be 100% sure of this yet.

I'm a little less sure about my pay off on the river. When he 4 bets the flop and continues to bet the ace overcard on the river into two obvious playing opponents, there is very little chance a pair of aces are any good. But I have a hard time folding top pair getting over 11 to 1. Can this be one of my leaks? Thanks.

DcifrThs · #2 03-14-2005, 03:45 PM

weak player limps...

you RAISE ac9c.

fine on the flop, call the turn, ok...and fold the river...

what in the world does he have that would cap the flop and continue to show strength..its not JJ-KK b/c he'd likely raise preflop again...so its probably a hand that NAILED that bb special flop out there. any number of 2 pair hands/sets/ straights that do not feat the ace.

i feel 100% comfortable folding to the river bet.

-Barron

oscark · #3 03-14-2005, 03:46 PM

You played it fine. Remember, a lot of thin value bets are made on the river. I can see the villain playing 88 the same way.

DcifrThs · #4 03-14-2005, 03:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You played it fine. Remember, a lot of thin value bets are made on the river. I can see the villain playing 88 the same way.

[/ QUOTE ]

i can't...not from a thinking player...flop went 3 bets and villian capped. villian bet and was called...looks precisely like a big time flush draw...when the ace hits, and its a non-club. villian just wants to see a showdown, his bet is intended to be called by a hand the ace helped...i can't see 88 being played this way on the river at all.

also, raise preflopand take it hopefully heads up with a weak player in position.

-Barron

Lestat · #5 03-14-2005, 03:59 PM

Thanks Baron,

This is an easy fold for me against many live players I play against. But everyone tells me that folding top pair on the river getting +10to 1 online, is sheer LUNACY!! So even though I played it poorly, it's comforting to know that it's still correct to apply common poker sense.

You obviously, are a good winning player online. Can you tell me why a pre-flop raise is mandatory? I understand wanting to isolate a weak limper. But there are many other players behind me yet to act. If there were no limper, would you consider this a raise or fold situation? I don't like raising bad aces in such an early position. But it's making sense to me now why everyone has raising percentages in the 12's and 13's if this is considered a must raise situation. Thanks.

Lestat · #6 03-14-2005, 04:04 PM

Thanks oscark,

That's what I thought too, particularily when it comes to online. Rarely will anyone bet through the ace in live play. At least not against me if they know me. They'd be too afraid I could have 99, or just what I did-- An ace-high flush draw. But I'm quickly learning that people online do NOT know me and couldn't care less how tight I play. I am a blank image to many of my online opponent's. And if I'm not, they play me in ways they shouldn't (but so far, that's not helping me to bea them). Anyway, I can fold this a lot easier live and I wonder if it's these kind of adjustments which are giving me such problems online. ??

DcifrThs · #7 03-14-2005, 04:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I limped after 1 weak limper with Ac,9c. Another weak player behind me limped.

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly how many players are there to act behind you? i can't tell from this description.

the earlier it is, the more likely its a call or fold (with an aggressive lineup behind ya).

the later it is, the more likely you must absolutely raise.

-Barron

Lestat · #8 03-14-2005, 04:09 PM

I agree with dcifrths, but you must be very sure you are in fact up against a thinking player. I see bets like this from pocket eight's all the time since I've been playing online. In fact, I see so many thin bets, I often can't tell if someone was value betting or out-right bluffing. But some of these bets are good two-way bets in that they sometimes get called by a worse hand and other times they get a better hand to fold. When this is the case, they become very good bets.

Lestat · #9 03-14-2005, 04:12 PM

I'm sorry. I should've said UTG limped and I called right behind him. I thought the game was right to play the hand, especially after the weak player limped, but there were too many players yet to act behind me for me to raise. That could be wrong.

In any event, just how bad was my play here? Bad enough to make it likely that I deserve to stuck after 50k hands? If not, I'm going to have to keep finding questionable hands to post. Thanks again.

DcifrThs · #10 03-14-2005, 04:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry. I should've said UTG limped and I called right behind him. I thought the game was right to play the hand, especially after the weak player limped, but there were too many players yet to act behind me for me to raise. That could be wrong.

In any event, just how bad was my play here? Bad enough to make it likely that I deserve to stuck after 50k hands? If not, I'm going to have to keep finding questionable hands to post. Thanks again.

[/ QUOTE ]

i still think that given the flop cap there is no WAY he is bluffing. thin value betting is very unlikely to be the case as well because he does much better with a hand that might be beat by aces if he checks and calls because then somebody will bluff since it appears he's scared by that ace. but he's not. he wants a call. you're done.

depending on the lineup i may just outright fold Ac9c after a weak limper. the weaker the lineup the mroe i call or raise...

-Barron