KK River Decision...

phil_ivey_fan · #1 06-01-2005, 05:04 PM

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 max, 6 handed) converter

MP Villain ($309.25)
CO ($141)
Hero ($198)
SB ($183.65)
BB ($232.88)
UTG ($270.7)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $1.
1 fold, MP Villain calls $2, CO calls $2, Hero raises to $8, 1 fold, BB calls $6, MP Villain calls $6, CO folds.

Flop: ($27) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Villain bets $15, Hero raises to $45, BB folds, Villain calls $30.

Turn: ($117) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Villain checks, Hero checks.

River: ($117) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Villain bets $50, Hero ???

results to come...

xorbie · #2 06-01-2005, 05:12 PM

Why did you check the turn? It's a pretty draw heavy board, and there's also tons of hands that you get value from. As you played it, I think calling the river is pretty easy.

piki · #3 06-01-2005, 05:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why did you check the turn? It's a pretty draw heavy board, and there's also tons of hands that you get value from. As you played it, I think calling the river is pretty easy.

[/ QUOTE ]yes

bet more on flop also

bet ~pot on turn

check down river if you want

phil_ivey_fan · #4 06-01-2005, 05:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why did you check the turn? It's a pretty draw heavy board, and there's also tons of hands that you get value from. As you played it, I think calling the river is pretty easy.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought checking the turn was pretty key. What hands does he check? 1pr, flush draw, str8 draw. 2pr, set all have to bet the turn or reraise the flop. By checking behind, I have (in my mind) appeared weak. And if you notice my play from his perspective does my play not hint at me having a flush draw?

So the river brings a scare card, but his bet is quite odd. And from what I think he thinks I have, he's going to try and take it down.

xorbie · #5 06-01-2005, 05:29 PM

I would agree with you if the board was J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. But on this board, what happens is that an ugly card (spade, 9, A) is going to fall pretty often and either kill your action or lose you the pot. If the board had been what I have up there, and he bets this river, I'm probably raising to represent a missed flush draw, and planning on getting called by a TP hand. On this board though, you can't raise because (a) it's a lot harder for villain to find a call, given that QK just hit and (b) it's a lot easier for villain to be able to have you beat.

phil_ivey_fan · #6 06-01-2005, 06:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I would agree with you if the board was J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. But on this board, what happens is that an ugly card (spade, 9, A) is going to fall pretty often and either kill your action or lose you the pot. If the board had been what I have up there, and he bets this river, I'm probably raising to represent a missed flush draw, and planning on getting called by a TP hand. On this board though, you can't raise because (a) it's a lot harder for villain to find a call, given that QK just hit and (b) it's a lot easier for villain to be able to have you beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Any decent bet on the turn pretty much has me committed. Pots at about 110ish and I've only got 150 behind. I agree that an A,9,spade,or jack kills the action, but w/ a bet (say 75-80) on the turn, nothing that doesn't already have me beat is calling. So I like checking the turn and inducing a river bluff from this guy.

there are arguments for calling the river and not really any for raising. I think Villain can find a call if I push on this river. From villain's point of view it looks like an opportune time for me to bluff on this scare card. He sees it as me making this play thinking he can't call w/out the str8.

So I push and get a loosey goosey call from TP...7kicker... MHIG. Maybe I over thought this, but its 6-max. There are a lot looser calls here than full ring. there are also a lot more bluffs and steals here as well.

creedofhubris · #7 06-01-2005, 10:54 PM

Push the turn.

MTBlue · #8 06-02-2005, 12:19 AM

This is mean an probably unconstructive, but your line sucks.
kk is the type of hand with which you want to play a big pot. The minraise is a a nice variety play, but you have to play the hand hard after that. The villain bets into you on a draw laden board after you have shown basically no strength preflop, which means he's probably on a draw and you put a little raise in. Put a bigger raise (60-75) on the flop then pot the turn and if the guy bets 250 at you on the river then wonder whether or not you should fold. Your line looks like a busted flush draw when you check the turn so you have to call the river. I guess what I'm getting at is Bet more!!! (Btw) my guess is the villain had kq.

MTBlue · #9 06-02-2005, 12:25 AM

Disregard the arrogant tone of my previous post, you obviously put the villain square on the right hand and hammered him with it. If you don't think a turn bet is going to be called by a draw then bet less, but you still have to bet or else the draws are getting infinite odds to draw to their hands and you never know when your pair of kings is good unless of course you are a knowledge enough to know that the villain only plays top pair this way and is drawing to 5 outs and will stack off no matter what.

phil_ivey_fan · #10 06-02-2005, 04:21 PM

yeah I definitely see a strong case for betting the turn, but what amount?

On the turn, the pot is $115 ish and I only have $150 behind. And the turn card is obviously not helping either of us.

I agree that a better raise on the flop (i like $60) would put me in a better spot to push the turn and get a caller.

NOTE: full-ring, I would be deciding to call the river bet or fold. I've give 6maxer's more credit for tricky plays.

NOTE2: Now looking back if he was tricky (like I gave him credit for), he could have a set and missed a checkraise allin on the non-spade turn. So I guess I got lucky. Next time I think I'm just calling the river.