two quick preflop questions... ($2/4) (55 and KTs)

captZEEbo1 · #1 12-30-2004, 10:31 PM

I know typically you only want one hand per question, but one of the hands is VERY short, and I'm pretty sure I made the right decision, I kind of just want to get some reassurance. The other seems a bit closer.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO calls, Hero folds, SB folds, BB checks.

Flop: (2.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, CO folds.

Final Pot: 1.75 BB

-easy preflop fold, right? Or is this pretty dependent on how defensive sb and bb are to the pf raises?

__________________________________________________ ______
Second hand:

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, Hero raises, MP2 folds, CO calls, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, CO folds, BB calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

River: (6.25 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB folds.

Final Pot: 7.25 BB

The rest of the hand is irrelevant, but that's how it played out for fun. Should I be open-limping here, trying to build up a put with suited broadway (ie. if someone calls my raise, I could easily be dominated)? Or should I be going for a steal with KTs from MP? Or since nobody has limped yet, should I just be mucking KTs? It makes a little difference that it is 8handed, but for argument's sake, we could say I was in MP3 in a 10handed game.

private joker · #2 12-30-2004, 10:44 PM

On a very loose and passive table where it's repeatedly 6-7 to the flop with no raise, limping with KTs is okay. But if you're opening, it's probably wise to raise or fold with it, and I don't think it makes much of a difference either way in the long run.

As for the first hand, with everyone folding to a CO who open-limps, why not raise in position? Fold out the blinds and let CO try to play the hand HU & OOP. You probably have the best hand.

captZEEbo1 · #3 12-30-2004, 10:53 PM

I see what you're saying on KTs, and I guess I kind of agree that it will probably be about the same either way in the long run, but probably best to raise.

As for the first hand, I'm not sure what limit you're accustomed to playing, but on $2/4, a lot of people are willing to defend blinds with any two (I've been seeing J5o, 93o defend blinds lately). The OTHER problem is, people call down ANY pair on 2/4, ESPECIALLY if it's heads up. That's where dilemma comes in. I don't know if it's worth raising "the best hand".

amulet · #4 12-30-2004, 10:58 PM

the 55 is a fold. you need 5 opponents to be getting the correct implied odds to play it, well done. as you move to higher limits you will see people reraise with position with 55 when co open limps. but at these limits starting out your play was correct.

the KTs is not a great hand. if the game is passive, i might limp, if it is aggressive i toss it, if it is very tight and you have a reasonable change of stealing a raise is ok. mostly KTs is a limping to folding hand in early position.

as with everything in poker, it all depends on so much, the games, the players in, etc.

private joker · #5 12-30-2004, 11:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
the 55 is a fold. you need 5 opponents to be getting the correct implied odds to play it, well done. as you move to higher limits you will see people reraise with position with 55 when co open limps. but at these limits starting out your play was correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

I strongly disagree with this weak-tight advice. Against one opponent a pocket pair is very often the best hand. I've played a good deal of 2/4 and people don't always defend their blinds. If they do, at least you have position on them. If the opponents don't have PPs, then they have to hit the flop to beat you, and it's actually hard to hit a flop. The pot will be small and they'll be incorrect to chase 6-out draws.

mowz · #6 12-30-2004, 11:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
the 55 is a fold. you need 5 opponents to be getting the correct implied odds to play it, well done.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the second time I've seen this advice today, and it isn't correct. You don't need five opponents to get implied odds, you just need to know you'll get five times your money back (and your bet of course). That is why the odds are "implied."

captZEEbo1 · #7 12-30-2004, 11:58 PM

let's say I just limp. Then I'm hoping sb completes and bb doesn't raise. So if that all goes according to plan, do you really see one limper, and two blinds paying me off enough to get my 5x money back? I mean I guess it's possible, but probable? Blinds usually have garbage, and if pot is small, how aggressive are they playing mid pair or top pair weak kicker?

mowz · #8 12-31-2004, 02:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
let's say I just limp. Then I'm hoping sb completes and bb doesn't raise. So if that all goes according to plan, do you really see one limper, and two blinds paying me off enough to get my 5x money back? I mean I guess it's possible, but probable? Blinds usually have garbage, and if pot is small, how aggressive are they playing mid pair or top pair weak kicker?

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't only make the play if I was fairly sure I wouldn't be raised pre-flop, but then yes I'd say you would make your money back almost every time you flopped trips. If the small blind completes and the bb doesn't raise, that is two bets. Assuming you can get paid off for three more (I.E one caller on the flop and one on the turn) you are already even money. If you are playing against two players that are both likely to fold before either sees the turn, you are probably better off just trying to steal the blinds anyway. So yes, it is highly probable that you will get paid off when you flop trips against two blinds that don't raise pre-flop. Am I missing something here?

Kirg · #9 12-31-2004, 02:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
let's say I just limp. Then I'm hoping sb completes and bb doesn't raise. So if that all goes according to plan, do you really see one limper, and two blinds paying me off enough to get my 5x money back? I mean I guess it's possible, but probable? Blinds usually have garbage, and if pot is small, how aggressive are they playing mid pair or top pair weak kicker?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why like PJ says you raise your 55 to get it HU, then you don't need to worry about the implied odds since you're not in set or drop mode anymore, you're simply in HU SH mode in which 55 is more then likely the best hand so whether you want to play this or not comes down to how good you feel you are at playing these types of hands HU.

But even worst case scenario, the blinds and the limper call, if you hit your set now you'll easily make up the implied odds on future rounds. Since you raised preflop and are closing the action you probably even get to see a free turn card if you want.

Alexthegreat · #10 12-31-2004, 03:28 AM

You SHOULD NOT be thinking "no-set no-bet" with 55 after the CO open limps....You should be thinking "raise" to punish the limp...It does depend on what the blinds are doing, but you should be able to act accordingly......

You should be making aggressive plays with the button against small fields AT ALL LEVELS NOT JUST HIGHER ONES...

In fact, at 2/4 less players will know what you are doing here, and will be more likely to let you take it down with your aggressive play.....

In this position, you just have too much hand to consider folding....