Would you just call on the river or raise?

lstream · #1 04-25-2005, 01:39 PM

This hand actually lead to a fair bit of chat at the table. Comments on all streets welcome. I am new to 5/10 and maybe being a tad passive - not sure. Would you raise on 6'th or 7'th?

7 Card Stud High ($5/$10), Ante $0.5, Bring-In $2 (hand converter)

3rd Street

Seat 2: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___completes
Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___brings-in___calls
Seat 4: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls___calls

4th Street

Seat 2: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls

5th Street

Seat 2: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 8: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___calls

6th Street

Seat 2: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets

River

Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] xx___bets

Hauser_III · #2 04-25-2005, 02:41 PM

Seat 8 called a completion on 3rd, and was passive on 4th and 5th, so I would not put him on a large buried pair to start. He's either got a 3-flush, a straight draw, split 6's with a high kicker or a small buried pair. With either a 3-flush or a straight draw, one of his underneath cards is going to have to be the 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] for you to be behind on 6th, and the only smaller buried pair that kills you is 99 ( I discount 10 10, because I would complete with that looking at 3 folds in front of me on 3rd if I were him). I think you should raise for value on 6th, because you're likely ahead. If he calls 6th, and then checks on 7th, bet; if he calls 6th and bets on 7th, I think I'd raise. The odds against him having a higher second pair than your 8's seem very high. But, I'm trying to be more aggressive in my stud playing these days....

Bartholow · #3 04-25-2005, 02:58 PM

This is a VERY clear raise on 4th IMHO. You have a pair with live ace kicker (and your pair may even be better than the bettor's) - you really want to get this headsup with some dead money in the pot. Additionally, even if you fail to get it headsup you don't mind too much because of your 3-flush.

I think raising 6th would be ok because a) you are almost certainly ahead of seat 2 and would like to charge him to draw out b) you may still be ahead of seat 8 (though I seem to lose here more than I would think) and most importantly c) you can check on the river so it doesn't really cost you anything, and it should be very hard for seat 8 to reraise (unfortunately if he does it's still going to be hard for you to fold I think).

jon_1van · #4 04-25-2005, 03:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This is a VERY clear raise on 4th IMHO. You have a pair with live ace kicker (and your pair may even be better than the bettor's) - you really want to get this headsup with some dead money in the pot. Additionally, even if you fail to get it headsup you don't mind too much because of your 3-flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

What he said

mscags · #5 04-25-2005, 03:18 PM

Yeah I like a raise on fourth and a reraise on 6th. If he bets out at you on the river I would just call though, just in case in hit a nine or some buried crap hit on the river. Besides that nice hand. Hope you took it home.

SittingBull · #6 04-25-2005, 03:34 PM

U on 6th. I would also raise 6th. However,I would NOT raise 7th if he bets into me. I already indicated that I'm quite strong by raising on 6th;hence,his bet indicates that he would call a bet from me or he has a better hand.
SittingBull

SittingBull · #7 04-25-2005, 03:42 PM

knocking out the 3rd player,who doesn't seem to be much of a threat,is incorrect. U are still drawing with your backdoor flush;hence,u want to see another card as cheaply as possible. U need him,in case u connect with a 4-flush. Calling is best on 4th.
SittingBull

jon_1van · #8 04-25-2005, 03:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
knocking out the 3rd player,who doesn't seem to be much of a threat,is incorrect. U are still drawing with your backdoor flush;hence,u want to see another card as cheaply as possible. U need him,in case u connect with a 4-flush. Calling is best on 4th.
SittingBull

[/ QUOTE ]

I strongly disagree here.

Because your 88 might be best here you want to get heads up BAD. And because your hand is good 3 way you don't mind a call.

-Raising increases your equity (when the guy folds) or Increases the pot when you probably have an equity edge (when the guy calls)
-Calling leaves the pot small when you probably have an edge.

After Edit ::

Also note that if the bettor has pocket Jacks you are about 53.8% vs 46.2%
So you aren't far behind if you are wrong. So a raise is damn near risk free.

Bartholow · #9 04-25-2005, 04:03 PM

Hello Larry,

I also really have to disagree with you here. As is detailed in 7CSFAP, there are a lot of reasons why even a good 4-flush can want to get headsup. Given that 2 of your diamonds are dead and you may in fact have the best hand, not trying to thin the field despite your 3-flush is a major mistake. And as Jon put it, you are also just raising for value because you have a pot equity edge. You might even be able to take a free card if you decide that is right. All in all the benefits of raising far outweigh those of calling.

Hauser_III · #10 04-25-2005, 04:15 PM

The reason I think raising back on 7th is a possibility is that, from seat 8's perspective, it's hard for him to put hero on A's up on 6th; after all, seat 8 has a pair of A's, and looking at hero's board, is likely to put him on two smaller pair. So a call from him on 6th could be a naked pair of A's, and a bet on 7th could easily be A's up, or a bluff of A's up. And, if he has A's up, I think lstream's hand is good with these boards much more often than not.