checking for value?

#1 09-19-2005, 12:15 PM

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, MP calls, 3 folds, Hero checks.

Flop: (3.33 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP checks.

Turn: (1.66 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls, MP folds.

River: (3.66 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks.

Final Pot: 3.66 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has 6h Js (three of a kind, queens).
UTG has Ah Qh (four of a kind, queens).
Outcome: UTG wins 3.66 BB.

spydog · #2 09-19-2005, 12:17 PM

Your turn bet stinks.

obsidian · #3 09-19-2005, 12:18 PM

Uh..a broken bot?

#4 09-19-2005, 12:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Your turn bet stinks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? No one has shown any interest in the pot on the flop, and given that, another Q on the turn didn't help anyone. It's very possible that J-high is the best hand and he'll pick it up.

Hell, just last night I was reading King Yao's book and it says something very close to: "If no one raise preflop and the flop is check through, you should almost always bet the turn if you're first to act, even if you have nothing."

Turn bet seems fine, as did the river check.

spydog · #5 09-19-2005, 12:43 PM

Well, maybe it doesn't stink. I would certainly be betting most turn cards here. However, because there are 3 queens on the board, nobody will believe you have anything and therefore you will normally get callers in this spot because they will assume you are bluffing. So, I'm probably only betting pairs or Ace high on this turn.

I wonder what others might think about this turn bet because I wouldn't be surprised if I'm in the minority.

Noodles · #6 09-19-2005, 01:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Well, maybe it doesn't stink. I would certainly be betting most turn cards here. However, because there are 3 queens on the board, nobody will believe you have anything and therefore you will normally get callers in this spot because they will assume you are bluffing. So, I'm probably only betting pairs or Ace high on this turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly,the quote of of yaos book applies to sort of 2normal boards" but not this one.

i cant see a hand better than J hi folding this turn,

spamuell · #7 09-19-2005, 01:07 PM

I'm with spydog, bet lots of turns but not the Q. I wouldn't bet a J or T either.

EDIT: Oh hang on a J gives us a pair, yeah I'd bet that.

MarkD · #8 09-19-2005, 01:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, MP calls, 3 folds, Hero checks.

Flop: (3.33 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP checks.

Turn: (1.66 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls, MP folds.

River: (3.66 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks.

Final Pot: 3.66 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has 6h Js (three of a kind, queens).
UTG has Ah Qh (four of a kind, queens).
Outcome: UTG wins 3.66 BB. 

[/ QUOTE ]

These are good flops to bet. This bet works better if you are BB and SB has checked - but it works a lot from the SB as well.

Bad turn to bet though, it's baseically the worst bluffing card in teh deck for you. I would bet any other turn except the third queen though. The third queen allows ace high to call you down.

Noodles · #9 09-19-2005, 01:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hell, just last night I was reading King Yao's book and it says something very close to: "If no one raise preflop and the flop is check through, you should almost always bet the turn if you're first to act, even if you have nothing."

[/ QUOTE ]

you are falling into the trap of applying certain mantras and rules to every situation which is a big flaw i had but i am getting out of it now.

such as "if you have odds to call then always raise"
"never open limp in 6 max"
these are generalities than don't always apply,
as always poker is very situation dependent,this is not a normal situation,look at the board,

even on say a KK6 board,it is checked around on flop then a blank hits turn and you bet with crap,they will call you with any kinda crap.

these are bad boards to bluff on as it looks so obvious you are trying to steal