Folding Queens on Third Street

[Andy B]

Actually, this isn't really about folding Queens on third street, but pittsburgh_kid's post made me think of it.

$6/12 stud with $1 ante. Full or reasonably full game. Bring-in is a seat or two to my right. I complete to $6 first in with (QQ)7. A friend who respects my play a little too much and who explores new horizons in weak-tight makes it $12 with a 5 showing. A couple of folds and an unknown opponent makes it $18 with an Ace in the door. I fold, and my friend calls. On fourth street, my friend catches an off-suit Ten and the other guy catches another Ace. My friend folds his rolled-up Fives out of turn. Comments?

FWIW, this was a jackpot game.

[banditbdl]

You're friend is in a tough spot. It basically comes down to whether there is any chance the player with Aces has 2 pair or Aces and a 3-flush, cuz if he does folding is a pretty terrible play, especially with about 50 dollars already in the pot. Therefore, unless you know this player wouldn't three-bet without the aces I think your friend needed to call him down.

[patrick dicaprio]

even if the A has three aces this is a bad fold, jackpot game or not. the chances of him filling but not the aces is high enough to call.

a comment on your fold: obviously there is a difference between calling two bets and calling one, so others must understand that this is a different situation especially with the weakest tightest player involved (hopefully not you [img]/forums/images/icons/blush.gif[/img] )

Pat

[MRBAA]

Pat, I disagree that he has odds to call if he knows the othe player has three aces. With $52 in the pot (including a likely 4th street bet and minus $4 rake), he's getting 8.67-1, which sounds good. But he's going to have to call $24 more to see if he makes a full house, so it's really a little worse than 2-1. Plus, even if he makes his house, or quads, his opponent has a redraw to better hands. The key is if this player is the type who'd make it three bets with a big buried pair (kings or jacks) and an ace up. If that's a good possibility, than calling down is in order.

[patrick dicaprio]

yeah i think you are right that he should fold if it was trips vs. trips. but you better be sure. so my advice that he should call on trips vs. trips is probably not correct. i am rusty on my odds but i think the odds are about 3-1 on lower trips winning so it is close. again this is trips vs another who you are sure that has trips. if you are not sure, and it is rare that you can be, you should really hesitate to throw away a rolled up hand.

pat

[J'adoube]

I think rolled up has to play on here. Aren't you a 3-1 favorite if he has two pair and even more if he has less.

So even though you are a 3-1 underdog if he has trip A's I think you can call it down profitably as if there is any chance he doesn't you are way ahead..

[MRBAA]

Given that a queen raised, and a 5 reraised the queen before the ace raised on third, and both the raisers are strong players, it's hard to believe that the ace does not have aces here. Without this kind of unusually strong evidence, I'd definitely not fold my rolled fives. Still, there are some players that might make this raise with pocket kings and an ace in the door, I suppose. But I think the ability to judge situations individually is the key to playing well, and this is one where folding the rollup just may be correct.

[Andy B]

I had a Seven in the door, not a Queen. If I had had a Queen in the door, I would be more inclined to fold in my friend's spot. I still probably wouldn't. And the other guy was content to check it down and try for the jackpot, and I certainly would have gone for that.

My friend had never seen the three-bettor either. I was somewhat incredulous when he told me that he folded rolled-up Fives, but he said, "did you see the way that guy raised? He has Aces!" Maybe. Still if pocket Kings or Queens are possible, I think he has a call. In the Ace's spot, I might three-bet with a random live pair with a suited Ace, especially if I thought that I could get the original raiser to fold. Given that the original raiser folded a pretty fair hand in this case, that might not have been a bad play here. I think that a lot of people would have hung onto those Queens, though.

I wouldn't say that my friend is necessarily a strong player, but when he made it two bets, I was quite sure that I was behind him. When the Ace came over the top, I thought it was an easy fold.

I'm going to post another pocket Queens scenario in the tournament section.

And Pat is quite right that my scenario is very different from pittsburgh_kid's.

[J_V]

Your friend has a fairly easy call all the way.

[Ed Miller]

Ummmm.. even if his opponent turned over his trip Aces, shouldn't trip 5's call down to try and fill up?