My Story, (first time poster)

[threeonefour]

First, I would like to say that I have been reading this forum for a few weeks now and I find it to be a great source for insight. Thanks to all the 2+2 posters for sharing their wealth of knowledge on the game.

I have been playing poker online for about 10 months now and I would like to hear some advice about how to handle my "career."

I started at Pokerstars by depositing 50$. I started playing very small limits obviously and had a little success. At least I didn't lose any money. After about 4 months of playing I was at 100 and had been as high as 250$. I then decided to get serious.

I am a mathematics and economics student so I already had probability and statistics down cold. I had studied game theory. I knew exactly how to calculate SD variance EV etc..
But I didn't exactly apply it to my game. I knew all the technical concepts but I always played in a relaxed casual commonsense manner.

Well eventually I started to play a little more scientifically and with less emotion (less tilting). I read a few books and I registered at Party Poker and my profits jumped through the roof. I made 600 in three weeks and I managed not to lose any of it back.

Basically as it stands today. I have turned 50$ in 2000+$ in 10 months. A fairly good feat in my mind. My problem is though I can't get beyond these bad streaks. I recently made 600 dollars in two weeks which made me happy, I thought i was ready to start moving up limits and start making my big move. But whenever I get to that point in my play I always end up hitting a wall. I have since lost 300 dollars straight. With almost no interruption.

Basically my poker is getting good. But I still can't stop the downward spiral effects of bad streaks followed by bad play. I still tilt a lot. And i don't have any specific method to handling my bankroll. I don't know how much to put at risk and how much to cash out when I am up etc. The only think I do do is I always cash out after taking some of these big beatings... To keep me from losing all my money due to tilt and such.

I think what happens a lot is that I make a ton of money at a limit. Then I think I have that game beat and I don't give players credit. This is basically happend at the .5/1 NL holdem tables at PS. up 600$ then I get cocky and try and slow play too much or something and a few players hit some big draws against me and all of the sudden I give back 400$.


I have heard people on this site talk about pokertracker and other software that can help. What would you guys recommend I do to better handle my finances and my play? Basically how does a player develop the mental maturity to be consistent at all times and not change habits due to emotions, maniacs, stress etc. I am happy with my performance of being up 2000$ but I am saddened by the fact that if I took away my top 5 losing sessions I would be up around 4000$.

Also, does anyone have any tips about how to move up limits and handle that kind of a transition?

[Eder]

if i graphed my bankroll going up it definetly wouldn't be a straight line

[ewile]

The swings are a part of this game. They just are. I think that time and experience is what helped me to learn to deal with them.

Now when I feel that I'm in a bad run I move down in limit, study my poker books, review my stats in Poker Tracker (you definitly should get it) and post hands in the small stakes forum. Sometimes I play one of the dollar buy in tourneys on Stars for fun and a change of pace (I'm not a tournament player at all). All these things help me to get my game back on track. Try some of these, or find your own ideas.

As far as bankroll management here's what I do (I play only limit, full ring games 14-18 hrs a week on-line)

I consider the appropriate roll for a given limit 150 BB plus a 30 BB buy in. So one could try $1/2 with a bankroll of $360.

If I loose I go back to .50/1.00 untill I have $360 again.

Win, and make the move up to 2/4 when you have $720 and so on...

That's how I've worked up from the micro limits to 2/4...going on 3/6 over the past year.

[bicyclekick]

what limit are you playin on party now?

[threeonefour]

I play a lot of different games. (is that bad?).
At PP i play 25$NL and 10$SNG of the NL holdem, stud, stud8 variety.

I also play 1/2 stud8 at PP.

I am completely cashed out of PP at the moment though.

At PS I was playing .5/1NL but i am quiting for at least a month I think. took too hard of a loss after winning a ton.
I also played 1/2$NL ring games for a very short period but I lost 100$ when my flush ran into quads and decided I didn't have the bankroll to play at that limit.

Also play a slew of SNGs. 16$ 1or2-table turbo 6.5$ 1or2-table turbo(NL only) and sometimes their slower counterparts. I also play 11$ rebuy MTT at PS on occasion.

I think other than the occasional cheap SNG or very cheap MTT I am going to quit poker for about 3 weeks and reassess my entire system.

Right now most of my profits have come from 25$ NL and $50NL at PP. I have also had good results with SNG, I seem to make a consistent ROI, although that ROI is rather low compared to my alternatives. Stud8 has worked out ok, it was the source of 75% of my profits early on(probably about 15% now) but I tend to stagnant there.

Also a bad sign about my finance management is that I don't even know how profitable I am. I have no hard numbers as to where the money is coming from its just my guess. I guess thats a sign I need pokertracker I suppose.

[threeonefour]

Its kinda funny. I am studying to become an actuary and an economist but i don't even use the most basic accounting methods in my poker. i don't have a solid feel for where the money is coming and going nor where it will be going in the future.

In the end, I think am just way too undisciplined. A little bad luck throws me off my game. And I am not paying much attention to the big picture or planning for the future.

[WillMagic]

I find that one of the things that separates merely ok players and good players is their attitude and acceptance of bad beats. Ok players get upset, berate their opponent, go on tilt, and lose cash. Good players just move on, knowing that winning in the long run would be impossible without bad beats.

The funny thing is...I know how both cases feel. I am a very good limit hold'em player. I really couldn't care less if I take a bad beat. But I'm a mediocre-at-best tournament/no-limit player, and I always get more pissed off when I take a bad beat in tournament.

I have thought about why this is for me. One reason is that I simply am not very good at no-limit. Another reason is that a bad beat at no-limit can end your tournament, and you can be left sitting around waiting for the next tournament to start. I, personally, find it much easier to see the long run and avoid going on tilt when i play in limit ring games that just move on.

In a sense, what I would recommend to you is that you take steps so that you can see the long run. That means buying pokertracker so you can see all the progress you've made. It means making sure that you are properly bankrolled (300 BBs) for any game you play, so that a bad beat has less impact on both your bankroll and psyche.

And it may or may not mean switching to limit hold'em where the bad beats can be less painful. This is purely speculative, and it may be the case that you are better at no-limit and the swings may be much less painful there.

Anyway, these are just some thoughts, and I wish you the best of luck in continuing your success.

Will

[MicroBob]

good thoughts....and somewhat similar to me.
i'm not THAT upset by a tourney bad-beat....but i definately feel them more then ring-games.

i've lost some really bad beats in ring-game limit and NL and really don't flinch at all. it happens.


for 314...i recommend reading some of the posts in the psych forum as tilt-management is an issue that is addressed all the time there.


imo you CANT consider yourself a good poker player if you can't handle and accept the bad-beats and swings.

i think there are many players who perhaps are technically better than me...but i'm better off then some of them because i'm never tempted to play at a higher limit to try to 'get back my losses'.


you HAVE to learn to shake off the losses and accept them as a part of the game.
if your AA is going to win 80% of the time...then that means it loses 20% of the time. this sounds like a huge advantage....
but think about baseball for a second....how often does a pitcher give up back to back hits to lousy hitters?? this happens to even the best pitchers. no matter how great your advantage you can still get beat.



p-tracker and stat-king can really help you understand and see the swings in a more accurate light.
i was charting some of my wins and losses last week for my records and tax-purposes, etc...and even with the two-week long losing skids in there (i had two of them) you could just see the total growing and growing. after the little downturn it would bounce right back.


finally, i'll use an analogy that helped my mom understand the swings better. she would get very upset if she asked how my poker was going and i told her i was down a little bit.
in fact, it has helped me see it better as well.

i would explain that losing $50 in a couple hours was no cause for concern and that it was about the equivilent of one's stock dipping 1/4 of a point in the opening hours of the market.
yes, you lost some money...but it's hardly worth hitting the panic-button and screaming SELL SELL SELL.

view each unit of 1k hands as a day in the stock market.
this a LONG-TERM investment here. you are going to have days where you lose.



also...if you're interested in more dialogue on SD and viewing things in terms of the long-run i highly recommend Mason's Gambling Theory and Other Topics where you may find some material that is helpful for your situation.

[BreakEvenPlayer]

Nice posts Will and Bob.

[pudley4]

And this thread from Homer. It helps put the streaks in perspective.

(The site he used doesn't allow remote linking any more, so right-click the links, choose "copy shortcut", and paste into a new browser window to see the graphs)

http://pokerstuff.50megs.com/10000_Hrs.JPG

http://pokerstuff.50megs.com/1000_Hrs.JPG

http://pokerstuff.50megs.com/100_Hrs.JPG