Thoughts on Deals at live tourneys (long)

[MicroBob]

(not sure if this belongs in MTT forum...but this is something that I have noticed specifically in Live tourneys so I think it's better suited for this forum)


Some of the deals I have seen in live tourneys have boggled my mind. And I've only played a handful of these so I assume this type of stuff happens all the time :


Example: Playing smallish live tournament with 65 entrants that pays out to top 9 places (Gold Strike in Tunica...$35 entry with $15 rebuys and $50 add-on).

Evidently, it is not uncommon in this tournament to normally have all players at the final table agree that the 10th place finisher gets $100 for just making it to the final-table and this is taken out of the 1st place prize money.

In this tournament, 9th place is $180, 1st place is $4300 or so.

I didn't want to look like a nit so I agreed to it.
The person who was pushing for it though was naturally the shortest stack and had the most EV to gain from this.

In fact, this player had less than a big-blind remaining and was to be all-in on the very next hand.
We were on a 10-minute break so everyone had plenty of time to talk the proposed $100 'save' for 10th place.

I was amazed that everyone was agreeing to it just because everyone thought that 'making it to the final-table' deserved something.

If I was 1st or 2nd in chips I probably would have nixed it (all players at the table have to agree).
But I was closer to the bottom in chips than the top...so I was unlikely to finish 1st...and still had a chance to finish 10th.
And everyone else agreed to it and I felt obligated to as well (nothing harsh...but I felt the peer-pressure when the 9 other players said 'okay')
Again, this was even though the short-stack was to be all-in on the VERY NEXT HAND and was basically asking for a free $100 before they busted out.
(the short-stack actually survived the all-in though...I busted out in 9th so it wouldn't have mattered to me anyway the short-stack player finished at least 8th).


Evidently, later in that same tourney....the final 4 players agreed to an even 4-way chop...even though the biggest stack had more chips than the 3 other players combined.
Some guy who was railbirding the final-table recognized me in the elevator and was all incredulous at the final 4 deal so told me all about it of course.
Sounded pretty bizarre to me as well.

If it was something like $4300, $2500, $1500, $1000 for the top 4 then that's $2300 or so for each player.
You had to love this if you were one of the three VERY short-stacks.


(thus my theory that live tourneys are actually higher EV than at first they appear...lousy rake and probably an obligation to tip are balanced by the ability to accept a REALLY good deal and/or turn down a lousy one).


One final example:
first day and first satellite at the WSOP in Vegas.
I play a $125 single-table satellite (winner receives $1070 or so....that is, 2 entry-chips worth $500 each for ANY tournament, plus $70 in cash).
It's common for the final two players to chop (usually fairly evenly according to chip-count).

We're down to 3 players - One guy has the other 2 of us combined out-chipped pretty badly. I had a very short-stack.
Guy in 2nd place in chips proposes a $200 'save'....so whoever wins will give the other 2 players $200 each.

We are all locking in $200 cash from the prize-pool and are just battling it out for the final $570.

Incredibly, the big stack says 'sure'.
I've got practically no chips left so I'm happy to agree too (I waited for the big-stack guy to approve...I didn't want to appear to ancy about how much I would LOVE this deal).

The big-stack guy clearly looked a bit new-ish and didn't know what he was doing in live play.
He just agreed to the 'save' because it sounded like a nice idea I guess.

Couple days later...I'm in the $3k event on July 1 and get moved right next to the guy who proposed that save. I thank him for the 'free' $200 that I never should have gotten had he not been bold enough to propose a save.
He said he almost didn't bother even mentioning it because it was so ridiculous that he just KNEW that guy would never accept it.
Well, evidently it never hurts to try.


I just don't see these kinds of unbalanced deals online (not to that degree anyway) and find them fascinating.

It's not THAT complicated to figure out that a 4-way even-steven deal when you have everybody else combined outchipped is REALLY bad. Yet there are quite a few players who just don't seem to see it.

And again - the EV from those who will accept REALLY bad deals does make a big difference and can balance out high-ish entry-fees and the semi-obligatory tip.

The trick, of course, is to not be TOO nittish.
If everyone is having fun (including you) then everyone will be more willing to go ahead and push forth a deal that gives you some EV.
The trick, I would think, is in politely turning down a deal that is -EV for you without being TOO nittish about it.

You don't want to give up too much...but if you are too nittish about turning it down then your opponents are less likely to do you any favors when the tables are turned.
This is espeically important for regularly run tourneys at your home casino that you might happen to play more regularly of course.

[Jorge10]

Ill add 2 more examples,

First one, I was in a tourney we were down to 4, one guy had about 1 chip left and the other 3 all had the same amount of chips, it was at a small casino and the blinds were pretty much half the stack of the big 3, I was one of them, so I said cant we give the small stack something extra and split the rest among ourselves since we are pretty much all in every hand we get the bb and that way we wont just let the cards decide? The prize pool was about 1200, but some of it had already been given out, the small stack would get about 100 bucks when he got 4th, I basically said lets give him 125 just so we dont have to get killed by variance the game was high low by the way so with 1 chip he could live for a while and maybe one of the big 3 could lose and he could still be alive. The small stack said sure, Of course the other two looked at me like I was crazy, they were like lets just play it out, sure enough, I got unlucky and of course I got third 3rd.

Another one, I was second in chips on a final table in the same casino, had about 80 chips, but a guy was in first by a lot, had about 300 chips, everyone else was pretty much crippled, except maybe 2 others that had like 40 chips, well someone offers the chip leader a deal everyone splits evenly, well he accepts and I get pressured because he has almost 4 times the chips I have, I give in and we all split evenly.