The ole "holdin the ace of that suit" flush bluff

[muse21]

I have just got back into the o/8 swing after a long stint playing mostly micro-level pot limit omaha.

As everyone knows, a popular (and successful) play at plo is to bluff at the flush if you have the ace. I have been playing 1-2 and lower and haven't been able to pull this play off yet. I know there is no bluffing a nut low draw with the threat of a nut flush, but does this play exist in limit o/8. At what level do you even consider this a viable play?

[PollyEmory]

Reverse that question -- in low limits when would you ever fold a 2nd-nut or 3rd-nut flush for one bet?

I've only been playing o8 for a month, so take this for what it's worth, but players who'd fold a non-nut flush would usually fold their non-nut flush draws before the river.

No ideas on higher limits.

--Polly

[Mendacious]

I've tried this countless times-- because logically it seems from your perspective that it should work, but it never seems to.. even in pot limit where a raise can really be huge.

I think this is a PRIME example of a fancy move that would only work on an outstanding player-- the type of player which hopefully is not at your table in any numbers.

[boscoboy]

save this move for pot limit

[Mendacious]

Sadly, it very seldom works in PL either..and it is much more expensive when it is called.

[Phat Mack]

but does this play exist in limit o/8. At what level do you even consider this a viable play?

It has a place in limit O8, maybe at a minimum of 10-20 B&M--usually better in PLO8 or NLO8. If you have a high hand, such as a straight, you might get a non-nut flush to lay it down.

Works best when:
Opponent's flush is weak;
Opponent doesn't have any, or much of a, low;
and you have some kind of low to show down.

If it's an all-high board, the play will work if it has been set up correctly by previous betting.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Polly:

While there are players who will fold a non-nut flush draw if that is their main hand, it doesn't mean that someone might have accidentally made a small flush and will now fold to your bluff as well as other players who have you beat but don't have a flush at all.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Ribbo]

It works all the time for me at pot limit. You have to be very clever about how to do it though. The most important factor is that on the river your opponent has to call a pot sized bet. Lets say you bet the pot on the flop $10, on the turn $30, this makes the river $90. Your opponent may have a hand such as a set plus small flush. If he started the hand with $50 he is going to call off the last $10 on the river, so you have to make sure they have 13x the size of the pot when you bet on the flop heads up.

[Mendacious]

I'm happy for you that it works, but I think it is by FAR a losing play for several reasons:

1) you can only pull this on a player who will actually lay down the K high flush.

2) Good PL08 players will not put themselves in position to have to make that decision with the K high flush for various reasons...namely, they won't play K high flush draws, and if they do, they will have a damn good low so that they know they are already in for half the pot, which means they may STILL call you because of the low. Furthermore, a pot sized bet on the end may look suspicious to a good player because it is a bet with low expectations of calling-- and therefore somewhat suspicious if it is coming from a good player.

3)For this bet (the size of the pot) to be worthwhile, it would have to work at least 50% of the time-- which it certainly doesn't. I would put it in the catagory of fancy moves which you should ONLY pull when you have VERY GOOD REASON to believe will work based on experience at the table AND against the player you are trying to bluff.

IMHO you are WAY better off in this game finding a weak table and beating it all day long playing solid, than trying to make fancy moves which have a decent chance of losing big. It is a classic case of trying to be fancy to squeeze a few more winners out of a table-- at the risk losing big. It's the type of play I might make on tilt or out of impatience.

[Wintermute]

It works a lot of the time for me, too in PLO8. But IMHO the most important factor, by far, is that you identify your opponent as being capable of folding a smaller flush. The dry-ace bluff works very well against strong opponents, but is a disaster against weak opponents.