villain C/R turn

Pretty common situation. Usually I call down and get beat. Need to know what sort of criteria/randomness I should be using on that turn decision, which comes up often.

No read on the player -- I've been here for five hands, and this opponent hasn't shown anything down yet.

Party Poker 0.50/1.00 6-max (5 players)
I am on the button with A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Preflop: UTG limps, CO limps, I raise, SB calls, BB folds, UTG calls, CO calls.

Flop (8.5 SB, 4 players)
6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
SB checks, UTG checks, CO checks, I bet, SB folds, UTG calls, CO folds

Turn (4.75 BB, 2 players)
T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG checks, I bet, UTG raises, I...

[TheMainEvent]

You need to call down here. Especially at 6max. But it really doesn't matter, it's still a calldown with no read at a full table.

[sean c]

These are always tough spots. Your getting roughly 4.3:1 to call down so you need to be good here 20%+ of the time to make a calldown profitable. Villian is unknown your drawing live against 2 pair and dead to the straight or set. He could have any of those hands of be semi bluffing a draw or doing this with a weaker ace. I tend to call down early in a session without a read for a couple of reasons. I want to know what villian has that he has played this way and i don't want people taking shots at me later and i doubt calling down is a big loser against an unknown.

The read would tell me what I need to know here, but since you don't have one, you'll need to call down to get one. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

A check-raise in isolation could mean villain limped his AA, or that he has nothing/middle pair and is trying to make you fold top pair.

So, you call and c/c the river.

[Stealthy]

I think we all hate this spot. You are likely to be behind but probably to a 2 pair that you have outs against so you have to call this turn. The river is also a call even if you do not improve and the board does not pair for a few reasons.

1. This is 6 max and you could easily be getting check-raised by a worse ace.

2. You see a lot of funny moves that make no sense at lower limits especially short-handed and he might not have an ace at all!

3. I have been known in my stupider moments to check-raise here with a club draw and have seen others do the same.

4. There is nothing wrong in paying off hands if you are unsure of where you are. You have TP good kicker and need to see a showdown. Even when he does take the pot it does not make the calldown wrong against an unknown.

[jrz1972]

Call down. Most of the time you'll lose to AT, but occasionally UTG will be getting cute with a draw. There's also the possibility that he has T9, which you have 8 outs against.

[milesdyson]

[ QUOTE ]
There's also the possibility that he has T9, which you have 8 outs against.

[/ QUOTE ]
96, T6, A6 are all possibilities here, as well.

if we give him every two pair or better hand here and say he check raises a worse ace maybe 5% of the time, it wouldnt be hard to figure out if we should call and call down.

of course i am too lazy + i have deadlines here at work [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[TheMainEvent]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There's also the possibility that he has T9, which you have 8 outs against.

[/ QUOTE ]
96, T6, A6 are all possibilities here, as well.

if we give him every two pair or better hand here and say he check raises a worse ace maybe 5% of the time, it wouldnt be hard to figure out if we should call and call down.

of course i am too lazy + i have deadlines here at work [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

5-handed, he's checkraising a worse A far more than 5% I think. And he will have just a draw sometimes too.

The reason I post this is this cute little trick (the "turn check-raise grenade") is like the #1 enemy to my top pair hands on 6-max. Everyone except the dumbest donkey does it. If I get motivated, I'll research what percentage of the time my hand is good. I can only recall one or two cases.

Now, it's interesting to look at this from the other person's POV: With a flopped monster (set of 9's here), do we bet out against the field of 4, hoping the sap on the button (me) raises it?

[TheMainEvent]

[ QUOTE ]
Now, it's interesting to look at this from the other person's POV: With a flopped monster (set of 9's here), do we bet out against the field of 4, hoping the sap on the button (me) raises it?

[/ QUOTE ]

What do we do? bet/3-bet. What do they do? Dig a hole and put out the branches and twigs.

edit: I assume that doubles as a results post

edit again: I didn't read the subject