88 3-bet w/ live straddle

Ulysses · #1 05-06-2003, 09:49 PM

Very live 15-30 game. Player who rarely looks at his cards until the turn makes it live 30. A couple of other super-live players and a couple of strong aggressive ones. I've been playing super-aggressively when the live ones are involved.

I'm first to act and find 88. Nice. I 3-bet. Next player, a very good player, 4-bets. Dammit. Everyone else folds, except for the straddler, who calls blind.

Flop is rags, 239 I think. I bet. Strong player calls. Straddler folds.

Turn is another rag, 7239 I believe. I bet. He raises. I call.

River is a King. K7239. I check. He checks.

I think maybe I should have 3-bet the turn.

Kevin J · #2 05-06-2003, 10:18 PM

I think 3-betting the straddle is a good play provided there is a decent chance of getting heads-up with the straddler. Otherwise, I'd probably just call- let the live ones come on in- and hope for a good flop.

3-betting the turn is strong. So would check/raising if he's aggressive enough to bet a worse hand enough times. I take it you lost to 44,55 or 66 after you checked the river?

Every once in a while I'll get hyper-aggressive with a hand like this (although it's much less frequent nowadays) I think there's some merit to it. When you win, you not only look/feel good about it, but you earn some future payoffs that the simply tight players could never muster. But when it doesn't work out, I can't help but regret the extra lost bets. IMO-

Diplomat · #3 05-06-2003, 10:25 PM

Hey Ulysses,

what would be your motivation to three-bet the turn unless you thought he was trying to push you around? (other than to push him off a better hand) If you can put him right on overcards I agree with your three-bet on the turn, but considering his four-bet pre-flop, I do not like it as much. Just my two cents.

BTW, is it a 4 or 5 bet cap pre-flop? I think this plays a small but signifigant role in this hand.

-Diplomat

Ulysses · #4 05-06-2003, 10:26 PM

I take it you lost to 44,55 or 66 after you checked the river?

I won't say what happened yet, but around these parts, 88 beats all of those hands. [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

Ulysses · #5 05-06-2003, 10:32 PM

5-bet cap.

I'm not sure about the turn, but I think 3-betting might be the right move to get him to lay down AK/AQ and take it down right there.

Kevin J · #6 05-06-2003, 10:34 PM

I thought 4's,5's and 6's were wild...

Seriously, I gotta stop posting on no sleep. [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

pilchard · #7 05-07-2003, 09:36 AM

I wouldn't have three bet the turn. You have no real idea where you are on the turn but you would have to think that after he raises you on the turn there is a good chance you are behind.

For a reraise to be right elements of the following need to be involved:

1) You have the best hand and therefore benefit from the raise if he calls with few outs or folds when he has the right odds to draw - Possible but by no means certain.
2) A better hand may fold - I can't see him folding a bigger pair.

I'd have played it the same way as you. If he'd bet the river I would have called.

oscark · #8 05-07-2003, 12:27 PM

He 4 bet preflop, although could have been his move to capitalize on your attempt to isolate the maniac. He then smooth calls the flop and raises the turn. To me that screams overpair to your 88, which he isn't going to throw away to your 3 bet on the turn.

Call me a wimp, but I fold to his raise on the turn.

If I do call, and he bets the K river, I can't call. -Oscar

Ulysses · #9 05-07-2003, 01:39 PM

Call me a wimp, but I fold to his raise on the turn.

10BB in the pot at that point and rags on the board. I think that would be a terrible fold.

If I do call, and he bets the K river, I can't call.

Once again, I feel it's a mandatory call at that point.

As you mentioned, his 4-bet is not a regular 4-bet. It's a 4-bet after I've 3-bet a live-straddling maniac. He knows I'll do that w/ a very wide range of hands. So, all he has to have is a regular raising hand to 4-bet in that spot. Just about any pair will do. AK/AQ definitely, possibly even AJ/AT/KQ.

Rick Nebiolo · #10 05-07-2003, 02:05 PM

I think you should have named this post "Tales of Brave Ulysses" **. There may be some meta-game reasons for three betting the turn but in general you have already accomplished a lot at that point and IMO were right to slow down.

Look at it this way. You are now heads up against a very good player who knows you probably came in with an aggressive pre flop reraise due to the live straddle. He reraised pre-flop, called your flop bet and raised the turn. This is a strong sequence. He kicked out the live straddle and you are heads up with a only one overcard on board (not likely to have hit him) and you have a middle pair. You are going to the river on this hand. He is either miles ahead with an overpair or has very good overcards such as AK, KQ or AQ. With the pot this big and this board he generally won't lay down any of these hands - especially the overpair.

I wouldn't be surprised if the river king hit him but would you be posting if you were already behind or it had not? OTOH, with your post count you probably would be posting [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

Regards,

Rick

** There is an old Cream song with this title. I played it from my MP3s while I wrote this post. It sounded better 30 years ago ;-).