Ciaffone hand vs. Miller hand

swatkaizen · #1 07-30-2005, 01:03 PM

In both hands, your equity on the flop is high and are first to act with the preflop raiser to your immediate left. I would be inclined to follow the same line for both. Are the differences enough to make Ciaffone's play optimal for his situation or would you treat it similarly to Miller's too?

Ciaffone:
$10-$20. You are in the SB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. EP and MP limp. You call. BB raises. All call. 8 SB, 4 players. Flop: Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. You have bottom set. What do you do?

A: Bet. Hope you're raised so you can reraise.

Miller:
You have 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in the BB. UTG raises, 3 players and you call. Flop is K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. You have a gutshot and flush draw. It's 10.5 SB. What do you do?

A: Check with intention to raise a bet from EP.

NDHand · #2 07-30-2005, 01:14 PM

You definitly don't want Hand no2 to go bet-raise, knocking out the field. As for Hand 1 the board is pretty coordinated and JT/flush draws arent going anywhere even for 2 bets so I guess bet-reraise is the best way to get the most money in and hope for the best.

chief444 · #3 07-30-2005, 02:13 PM

The only think I may do differently is raise preflop in hand 1. But the flop line seems pretty obvious for both IMO.

SmileyEH · #4 07-30-2005, 02:16 PM

I'd CR the first one because most raisers out of the BB will read your raise as a flush draw and 3bet, then you can cap. Then when it bricks off you can check and checkraise the feild again.

-SmileyEH

AaronS · #5 07-30-2005, 04:23 PM

I like Ciaffone's line in hand 1 b/c you hope BB will raise and force the field to call 2 bets. True, flush draws wont fold, but gutshots w/ pairs like QJ or QT might, which could increase your pot equity significantly.

In hand number 2 however, you wouldn't expect to win unless the flush or straight hits, so knocking players out doesn't increase your pot equity much. However, with 5 players on the flop, your pot equity is high enough that you benefit from each additional bet that goes in.

McGahee · #6 07-30-2005, 04:50 PM

I'd play both the same but I feel somewhat gay checking the turn in hand #2 when a brick slides off - how much do we give away our hand when we check, or do we continue betting, or does it depend on how many are left in the hand?

Harv72b · #7 07-30-2005, 05:51 PM

I like betting out on Hand 1 in the hopes of a raise, but I'm not planning to re-raise no matter what. If EP & MP fold, then I'm calling the raise and going for a checkraise on any turn card. If EP or MP 3-bet, then I'm calling the raise & donkbetting a blank turn, then going into calldown mode until/unless the board pairs if I'm raised again. So, I agree with the initial action, but I think this hand requires a lot more thought than just "so you can reraise".

winky51 · #8 07-30-2005, 08:31 PM

Both are right.

#1 betting to have the PF raiser raise your bet is correct because then you make all the draws pay 2. You also find out more info on them. ALSO the guts will (should) fold their hands increasing your chance to win.

#2 check raise is good because it builds your pot for when you hit with 13 outs.