Am I spewing on the turn?

checkmate36 · #1 10-07-2005, 11:25 PM

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

MP1 is rated fish in my PT with a vp$ip of 46.67 and PFR 4
Button is a maniac with VP$IP of 38 and PFR 18

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero calls, MP1 calls, 2 folds, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB bets, Hero calls, MP1 calls, Button calls, SB folds.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, MP1 3-bets, Button caps, BB folds, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

You can never be sure when these types of players raise since they don't play with any kind of logical basis to their actions. The button could very easily be capping with just a T making him a straight draw.

When it was up to me I felt my raise would hopefully fold one of my opponents and increase my chances of winning should I hit an Ace or if my 8 happens to be good. When it was back to me I think I have to see the river card with so many cards that improve my hand.

River: (17.50 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks, Button bets, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

I called this river with such a big pot. Its very possible that button could be bluffing with a busted straight when the river brings a dud. I would think my 8's are good often enough.
Final Pot: 20.50 BB

#2 10-07-2005, 11:38 PM

I don't like the turn raise. The pot isn't large enough to justify an attempt to fold out the two acting behind you, and you don't have the equity to make the raise for value. There are two people to act behind you that possibly have you beat (possibly calling with a K or a 9), and it makes the river brick tricky to play.

Augster · #3 10-07-2005, 11:42 PM

Ugh. I don't know.

Fold preflop? I'm not happy with A8s if it gets raised and RR behind me. A8s I play from the CO or button without a raise.

Raise the flop! Push the betting while you have a good chance to build a BIG pot.

Turn: BB still likes his top pair. A straight card hit. Why the raise? So, to answer your question, I feel the raise was spew.

The river is standard getting 18.5:1.

istewart · #4 10-07-2005, 11:45 PM

Turn raise is a bit spewy IMO. Fold the river without thinking the way the turn played out.

#5 10-07-2005, 11:46 PM

Going for overcalls is fine (standard?). The pot isn't that large, and you're still drawing to a heart or an ace, no point in making the field face two cold.

StevieG · #6 10-07-2005, 11:46 PM

I fold this river. What do you think the button was capping with that you beat? For that matter, what was MP1 3-betting with that isn't a made hand? T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]?

#7 10-08-2005, 12:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]

MP1 is rated fish in my PT with a vp$ip of 46.67 and PFR 4
Button is a maniac with VP$IP of 38 and PFR 18

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are rating players based on their VPIP and PFR you are making a mistake. (I'm not sure if this is what you're doing, or just what you happened to mention above) Post flop aggression is far more important than preflop aggression in deciding what sort of player they are, and they don't necessarily match up. I played with a 100%vpip, 100% preflop raise player yesterday, who after the flop played normally. He was only a maniac before the flop, not after.

And, your mistake in this hand was not raising the flop bet. With 4 to an ace high flush and no pairs on the board, against a group of opponents, you should be raising and reraising this flop.

StevieG · #8 10-08-2005, 12:20 AM

[ QUOTE ]

And, your mistake in this hand was not raising the flop bet. With 4 to an ace high flush and no pairs on the board, against a group of opponents, you should be raising and reraising this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's how I would play it, but can't one make an argument for not making the others face two cold?

#9 10-08-2005, 01:39 AM

IMO The turn raise is probably incorrect.
A9 is the only Ax hand that you can or want to fold. Any Qx or Jx hands (the overcards you're trying to fold with the raise) that didn't get any piece of the flop, aren't going to be here any more and if they are, they're stupid enough to call your raise anyway. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

BONUS
You will give the OESD incorrect odds to call in this small pot with your raise. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
BUT any Pair + OESD is calling and anyone who only has the OESD shouldn't have called the flop and is going to come anyway. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]
Plus there is the chance that someone made the straight on the turn [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Raise the flop. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]- nutFD + OC + BDSD
Fold the river. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] - 3 villians in love with their hand = no win

#10 10-08-2005, 01:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

And, your mistake in this hand was not raising the flop bet. With 4 to an ace high flush and no pairs on the board, against a group of opponents, you should be raising and reraising this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's how I would play it, but can't one make an argument for not making the others face two cold?

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO raising the flop is really bad. The pot is small, and there is a lot more value in keeping every one around to pay us off when we hit our flush.