77 - How did I do?

MarkD · #1 11-01-2004, 12:03 AM

This hand kind of confused me. I must admit that my flop action is atypical, but it sure felt like the right play. My logic was that my hand may be best, but was certainly vulnerable and I since I wasn't sure if I was best I would see what developed on the turn.

None of the players were overly loose or agressive. I would classify them as slight losers who are trying to play well but lack understanding of the game. They are not horrible, but they are not good either.

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. MP1 posts a blind of $15. CO posts a blind of $15.
2 folds, MP1 (poster) checks, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO (poster) checks, 1 fold, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, MP1 bets, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO raises, Hero calls, BB folds, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (7 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets

 How is my play up until this point?

Louie Landale · #2 11-01-2004, 01:21 AM

One card gut shot with a small pocket pair and one overcard ... if there is a harder situation I cannot think of it right now.

You've got a very weak 6 out hand. Fold if you are sure you are beat.

Since you aren't going to fold this one for a double bet (obviously, since you called) then you should have 3-bet it, since this drastially increases the chances you win the pot. MP1 can easily have a pair of 8s while LP has a draw, and if the pair of 8s folds you promote your questional 6 outs into a whopping 30 or so "outs" favorite. All for one more bet.

Like the bet on the turn, but that only makes sense if you were in some serious doubt on the flop.

- Louie

MarkD · #3 11-01-2004, 01:40 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Since you aren't going to fold this one for a double bet (obviously, since you called) then you should have 3-bet it, since this drastially increases the chances you win the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]
I thought about this on the flop, but did not think about as clearly as this:
[ QUOTE ]
MP1 can easily have a pair of 8s while LP has a draw, and if the pair of 8s folds you promote your questional 6 outs into a whopping 30 or so "outs" favorite. All for one more bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Like the bet on the turn, but that only makes sense if you were in some serious doubt on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have me pegged exactly. I was unsure about how to play this flop/turn. Part of my problem with making the 3-bet on the flop was how to play the turn if a painted card came down. So I called the flop planning on betting any card 8 or lower and possibly a ten or nine as well.

I think your reasoning for 3-betting the flop makes that play clearly betting than just calling.

DrGutshot · #4 11-01-2004, 02:03 AM

Although I like the reasoning - I think this is one of those hands where you are overanalyzing. In order for this play to work, Player A MUST have X and player B MUST have Y - this pot is decent sized, but I wait for a better situation to get my money in than this very questionable one.

-DrG

JasonP530 · #5 11-01-2004, 03:51 PM

He doesnt have 6 outs if someone has a diamond draw, and he chops with another 7. I think you should fold the flop, but I would 3 bet if I was going to play.

MarkD · #6 11-01-2004, 04:32 PM

It's not that simple IMO. It's not all about the # of outs I have. There is a possibility that I have the current best hand - if we just look at my outs we are assuming that I am losing and based solely on the # of outs I have then I should fold the flop.

I think it is more complicated than that though.

xxxxx · #7 11-01-2004, 07:58 PM

You may well have the best hand for the moment. I still wouldn't coldcall 2 on the flop in a tiny pot. Let it go.

Half the deck could give somebody a flush. Another half the deck, A-9, could give someone an overpair. Your outs aren't clean as a six may give someone an equal or better straight and a 7 loses to any 8 high FH.

na4bart · #8 11-02-2004, 03:14 AM

I must admit I liked the prior reasoning for the 3 bet until I read this and gave it some thought. Am I correct in saying that this is the same as playing for a parlay (A must have X and B must have Y) making the situation a longshot? I know I didn't word this very well, hope you got my meaning.

Louie Landale · #9 11-06-2004, 02:53 PM

Catching a paint is a GOOD thing for your hand: the chances it hit the opponent is pretty small, AND its a bad card for the hand he's most likely to have: a pair of 8s. If the opponent is capable of folding a pair on the turn, bet pretty much no matter what (if you 3-bet the flop).

Yup. Unlike most "combined outs ganging up on the best hand" problems that feature hero with a big pair (where I am strongly against that notion), medium pairs DO present this feature: the less hands drawing against you the better. And that's why timid folks should NOT be playing hands that can make medium pairs, since these pairs must either be raised or folded (most of the time), and tight folks never raise with medium pairs.

- Louie

Louie Landale · #10 11-06-2004, 02:55 PM

Notice that I qualified the 3-bet with the fact that hero believed that calling was better than folding. Thus, the 3-bet only costs one more bet. 3-betting in this spot (to get a potential better hand to fold) is almost always better than calling, although folding is often better than both.

- Louie