Need some words of wisdom

[jameshamel]

I consider myself a good and rapidly improving player. I play small stakes, and after buying "small stakes hold em" and reading it, I saw 50 dollars at the 2/4 3/6 tables turn into 562 real quick. I cashed out some of it, but lost about 400 dollars, the final night of my slide capped off by a lady who calls my wired jacks all the way to the river with Q/4 where she hits the queen. I now find myself wondering if it was luck that bought me my bankroll, and that it had nothing to do with good plays. I don't know, has anyone else lost that much money on small stakes in a week just with bad beats and bad cards?

If so, I'd like to hear about it, cause I feel like garbage right now.

[steamboatin]

The thing about small stakes is there is a lot of variance. I like to play at B&M cardrooms and some nights, the deck hits you over the head and other nights, no matter how good your hand is, it ends up being second best.

It is hard to understand at the beginning and I still struggle with it but that lady that caught the queen on the river, is your meal ticket. When you can see a play like that and realize that you are in Heaven not Hell, then you begin to understand poker.

Don't take this to mean, I have it all figured out, because I don't. I have more holes in my game than a temmis racket but I am plugging them one at a time.

[BreakEvenPlayer]

James,

People around here tend to profess the idea that one needs a 300 BB (big bet) bankroll in order to be able to cope with the variance of limit hold'em.

For the 2/4 limit, that would be $1,200 dollars.
For the 3/6 limit, that would be $1,800 dollars.

You sat for the first time at a 2/4 table with $50, or 12.5 BB. It is a miracle that you did not lose that $50 immediately. You are talking about a $562 "bankroll?" That is not even 1/3 of the bankroll required for 3/6.

Don't play poker underbankrolled unless it is money you plan on losing. Remember that the bankroll requirements mentioned earlier also presuppose that you are a winning poker player, which you may or may not be. These forums are an incredible resource to improving your game.

I would re-read your poker books while saving up some money. When you are ready you can deposit $300 which is a bankroll for the $0.50/$1 games. Post troubling hands and other questions in the Small Stakes forum and become actively involved in the game. Wait until you meet bankroll requirements before you move up in levels.

Or better yet, don't listen to any of this advice. There are plenty of 2+2'ers at the online tables who really don't mind free money!

[AKQJ10]

The hard thing about being a rather new player confronting a first real downswing (OK, i was down 50 BBet at Paradise .05-.10 once but that hardly counts) is that you can't tell whether it's really variance or whether your play is at fault. The other hard thing is that whereas everyone's willing to tell you about the 300 BBet, no one's got any advice for how to tell if you're a winning player at the level you're playing.

So I've decided to just play each microlimit until i'm convinced i can beat it. This doesn't have to be +300 BBet, i don't think, but somewhere around +200 is what i'm thinking.

Regarding the original poster's experience, i think it's quite plausible that some of the original upswing was the result of Ed Miller's book and some was due to variance. Similarly, when i was around -200 BBet i'm pretty sure it wasn't that i'd become a worse player than before, but i do think that my reaction to the bad luck was probably leading to some bad decisions that accelerated the downswing.

[J LU]

My suggestion - Go back and reread SSH. You will probably find alot of concepts that you aren't using well.

[Al Schoonmaker]

Good post, thank you.
Regards,
Al

[timmer]

1. Much of Bankroll Science is largely overrated.

2. A small buy in online isnt bad if you realize that taking a 100 BB dump is a very common occurance. You should be willing to rebuy with 1 or 2 additional deposits of this size. [1]

3. Although winning right off with a small bankroll isnt a miracle it does suggest a bit of good luck.

4. I am all for good luck as long as it doesnt lead one down the proverbial primrose path.

timmer

[1] I dont avocate keeping large sums of money in online accounts. That money simply unsecured and goes unused most of the time. I suggest 100 to 150 BB at the most. Unless there are extenuating circumstances.

I would rather see multiple deposits for a lesser amount. unless of course your site pays you interest on those 200 or 300 BB account balance.

rolling your bankroll in and out of laddered CD's or sitting in a modest MMA is much more fiscally responsible.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Very good response.

I might add that even the best players can have swings that will occasionally stress the 300 big bet rule. It does happen. The swings the original poster mentioned are typically seen on a frequency of every few sessions. The swings are VERY large compared to the win rate, get used to that.

Keep in mind that you expect your results to be with +/- 3 standard deviations from the mean. now your standard deviation in 3-6 might be something like $50 an hour. That means that in ONE HOUR if you lost or won $150 IT WOULD NOT EVEN BE A STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT RESULT. This will continue FOREVER as long as you play limit hold'em. The swings are LARGE. I can't stress this enough.

al

[Onaflag]

I can relate to your story. The bottom line is to hang in there and read, read, read.

A friend of mine turned me onto PokerStars over a year and a half ago. I'd deposit $50, lose it, deposit another $50, lose it, and the trend continued as I wandered through no limit, limit, sit&gos, tourneys, you name it. I'd make a little, have a couple beers, and blow it three levels higher than I won it at. This had to stop and I had to either A) learn how to play, or B) stop playing. I decided to learn how to play.

Step 1: HPFAP. Yeah right! Like I was ready for that. In retrospect, I never should have read that first. I was convinced I'd been Sklanskied and vowed never to read another 2+2 book. More losses.

Step 2: I read all the books on the "don't read" list. Ken Warren, Hellmuth, and some Vorhous online book. Little did I know at the time that this was a required step for me. I started to win more consistently, but something was missing. I wouldn't know until later that these books suck.

Step 3: With the "basics" down (I thought), I needed something more. I picked up Dr. Al's POP book and my poker life changed. It forever changed my outlook on style and I made the difficult changes. Now I realized that I haven't made a Neteller deposit in a while. WhooHoo!!! I cruised onto Party with $100 and turned it into over $500 at 3/6. Boy, did I get lucky or what? I was too naive to know that I never should have done that. But I was improving at B&Ms 3/6 as well. I'm not dumb. Another trip to the bookstore it is!

Step 4: Time to take this to the next level. I got every 2+2 book I could get my hands on. I literally drove for an hour one way to find SSH. The Barnes&Noble in town didn't have it yet and I was WAY to impatient to order it online. I'm reading everything I can get my hands on and luckily stumbled onto these forums around the time I scored that $500 hit on Party.

I am convinced this time that I DO NOT want to make another deposit to Neteller and proudly step down to 1/2 to conserve my BR while I'm learning. I grinded while studying the books and made enough for a couple nice cashouts PLUS the required BR for 2/4 where I'll stay for a while. Have I mentioned PokerTracker yet? If you don't have it, get it. Its required software. I'd do the quick reviews in Dr Al's book before venturing to the B&Ms on the weekends. There was (and is today) a 2+2 book in every bathroom, on my bedstand, next to the sofa, and I found one in the garage the other night. How did it get there, I wondered? I must have needed the peace and quiet, dunno.

Fast forward to today: I have the BR at Party to make the jump to 3/6, heck, if I'd quit cashing out a portion once in a while, I could easily make the jump to 5/10. Will I do that? Hell no. Not until I am convinced my skill level can handle it. You are outmatched at 3/6. Even at 2/4, there are plently of people on these forums making a living at it. They're not going to feed your BR until you get your skill level up to theirs and beyond. Maybe some people didn't start out at the nano levels, but I did and I worked my way up from idiot to not too damn bad of a player. Someday, I hope to be tough competition at the 15/30 level, but I am in no hurry.

Finally, I don't know how old you are or even if any of my post applies to you (if not, maybe someone will get something out of my rant) but one thing that turned the home life in my favor was buying something tangible with a cashout. I bought a $1000 treadmill online (Smooth Fitness rocks!) that my wife and teenage daughter love. I remind them that it came from poker winnings and that makes my playing a little more acceptable in their eyes.

Good Luck!!

Onaflag.............

[jimymat]

Your wired jacks getting cracked on the river happens constantly. She had A %12 shot on the flop and %6 on the turn. These are the type of players that will feed your bankroll over time. Think back on some of your beats that you took. Your thought process should go like this,
1. Was I ahead on this hand and just get a bad beat on the end or was I actually behind starting preflop and just got out played. If you got out played then work on your weakness. Why did you put your opponent on a draw rather than top pair top kicker for ex. Analyze your play all the way through the hand. If your dedicated to the game you will remember every time you lost a big pot then later you disect it untill its roadkill.
2. If you were ahead , say top pair for you vs draw for your opponent, did you charge them the maximum that you could to make there draw incorrect to call. ( More in NL than Limit you can do this) If not, why?
It is insane right now for online poker. People will call down any kind of draw no matter how much it costs. Im down over 500 BB right now thanks to these wonderfull types of players. I go back and analyze always. I got full house beat by quads one time. The other I get the under full and the guy rivers me for the over full. Ace high flush gets rivered by Full house. Notice my pattern is I try to flop my hand or get a draw where I'll have the nuts if i get there. I then jam the pot and charge the guy a helluva lot of chips to draw to his hand. Very rarely do we get to the end of a hand where the cards are flipped and I was way behind the whole time. My style of play is consistently tight aggresive. I fold the best hand all the time with no regrets. Theres always a better hand around the corner.

You have to work through the downswings or else you will never make it. In poker you will be cold 90% of the time and hot 10%. You should be tightening your game and only playing around 15 - 20 % of the hands dealt to you. Poker is about as exciting as watching grass grow. When you lose 500 BB in a matter of three days its an absolute gut wrenching feeling. Looking back it was just badluck for me. I play through it and dont extend my bankroll so hits like this dont matter. Just a speed bump in my game. Dont get down and just realize its the nature of the game to get sucked out on a lot. Hang in there and good luck.