Interesting AJ hand

hate · #1 02-18-2005, 07:12 PM

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Hero raises, 2 folds, MP1 3-bets, 6 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP1 raises, Hero 3-bets, MP1 calls.

Turn: (6.75 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP1 raises, Hero calls.

River: (10.75 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12.75 BB

The villain here at MP1 was a 2+2er who knows I'm a 2+2er and I play frequently with at 1/2. He's a good aggressive TAG who normally plays 2/4.

toss · #2 02-18-2005, 07:19 PM

Hmmmm, it look like he was trying to fold you. Then again theres also a very good chance he has you beat. I don't see myself folding, but I do see myself calling down after his raise on the flop.

Entity · #3 02-18-2005, 07:21 PM

Flop: Check and call.
Turn: Check and call.
River: Bet. Call a raise if you think opponent is capable of bluff-raising river. Else fold.

hate · #4 02-18-2005, 07:52 PM

I've never tried a line out like this. The more I think about it, the more I like your line better than any aggressive line of mine. AK and TT are the only reasonable hands I'm beating, I've got a lot of overpairs he'd 3-bet with, and the unlikely set. I thought it was interesting because he tricked me with calling the 3-bet on the flop, and getting me for another 1SB on the turn, not because I boned every street.

ArturiusX · #5 02-18-2005, 09:47 PM

Why check-call this flop? The only thing your behind is Pocket pairs higher than Jacks.

LoaferGee12 · #6 02-18-2005, 09:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: Check and call.
Turn: Check and call.
River: Bet. Call a raise if you think opponent is capable of bluff-raising river. Else fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

A hand like this was brought up earlier and Shillx brought up a good point about the check-call, check-call, bet line that I found interesting.

Here is what he had to say
[ QUOTE ]
Betting the river sucks even if the opponent can not raise. Let's say he can have AK and JJ+. We lose to 16 combos and beat 12. If he will call with all of them, we are getting 12:16 on our bet and it is a losing prop. Since he will raise some of these hands, it makes it worse if we decide to call the raise (we should not call the raise in this spot imo).

If the villian will bet all of his hands it will be 16:12 that we are beat, but the pot will be giving us 8.25:1 so it is an easy call.

If the villian will only bet hands that beat us, we can't win if he bets so we should check/fold.

If the villian plays perfectly, the odds that he is betting for value are 8.25:1 (same as the pot oddds). It doesn't matter what we do in this spot. If the villian deviates any amount from perfect play, we can adjust our calling strategy. If he bluffs to much we call. If he doesn't bluff enough we fold. So against a LAG/Unknown we should check/call. Against a solid/TAG we should check/fold.

Brda

[/ QUOTE ]

Link to the thread itself:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...14&fpart=1

Shillx · #7 02-18-2005, 10:02 PM

I'm check calling the 1st 2 streets. At this point the pot will be 6.75 BB. After he bets the river the pot will be 7.75 BB.

Because he is a 2+2er he should be checking AK/AQ behind. If he bets those hands he should be bitch slapped. Betting these hands might be correct if you are playing 3rd level, he knows that I know that I think he is rational type [censored]. You have to think he will show those hands down in this spot.

Anyway he is playing AA-TT after he bets the river. There are 22 ways he can have those hands. We can only beat TT. So it is 16:6 that we are beat. We are getting 7.75:1 from the pot. This is an easy call.

Check/call-check/call-check/call.

The problem with betting is that a 2p2er will recognize this line as top pair and will raise our ass with overpairs. With top pair jacks, I like to check/call no matter what. With top pair aces, I like the cc/cc/bet line more because we will get calls from KK-TT (21 combos) and we have less fear of a raise from AK (just 8 combos).

Brad

Entity · #8 02-18-2005, 10:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Flop: Check and call.
Turn: Check and call.
River: Bet. Call a raise if you think opponent is capable of bluff-raising river. Else fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

A hand like this was brought up earlier and Shillx brought up a good point about the check-call, check-call, bet line that I found interesting.

Here is what he had to say
[ QUOTE ]
Betting the river sucks even if the opponent can not raise. Let's say he can have AK and JJ+. We lose to 16 combos and beat 12. If he will call with all of them, we are getting 12:16 on our bet and it is a losing prop. Since he will raise some of these hands, it makes it worse if we decide to call the raise (we should not call the raise in this spot imo).

If the villian will bet all of his hands it will be 16:12 that we are beat, but the pot will be giving us 8.25:1 so it is an easy call.

If the villian will only bet hands that beat us, we can't win if he bets so we should check/fold.

If the villian plays perfectly, the odds that he is betting for value are 8.25:1 (same as the pot oddds). It doesn't matter what we do in this spot. If the villian deviates any amount from perfect play, we can adjust our calling strategy. If he bluffs to much we call. If he doesn't bluff enough we fold. So against a LAG/Unknown we should check/call. Against a solid/TAG we should check/fold.

Brda

[/ QUOTE ]

Link to the thread itself:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...14&fpart=1

[/ QUOTE ]

If your goal is maximizing the value in a particular hand, one should usually bet the river. I disagree with Shill's assessment in the other hand as well, as the majority of the time, a standard villain will call with AK/AQ and underpairs, figuring the river to be a bluff X% of the time.

With 15 combos of overpairs and one possibility of JJ, we're dealing with a situation that allows for 6 cases of TT and 24 cases of overcards; even if the villain only calls with overcards like AK/AQ 70% of the time, it is profitable to bet, as long as you feel comfortable folding to a raise.

Rob

Shillx · #9 02-18-2005, 10:07 PM

Yeah but you have to look at the hand range I gave the villian. If you give the villian TT+ and AK, you have to call on the river. A 2+2ers range is probably TT+ and AK (depending on who it is) so check/folding this hand doesn't seem reasonable. Of course if the villian won't value bet TT, you have a different story.

Brad

hate · #10 02-18-2005, 10:08 PM

Because he's a 2+2er, and he'll be following roughly the same schedule of 3-betting that I am, I am much more confident he's got a strong hand. Unless he was specifically looking to play HU against me, which is occasionally his repertoire, he'd 3-bet preflop AK, AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, and most likely drop 99 because he's done that on more than one occasion to a raised field. This is even more important here than Shillx's example, because a broader range of hands beats me. I'd play this strongly against a LAG or unknown, because they're more predictable. I have a good chance of being ahead here, but I'm not going to go ahead and say I'm value betting since I know his preflop tendencies.

err, I meant to say I'd play this strongly against a LAG or unknown because he's less predictable, not more.