PP 30/60: KJs vs TA2

Robb · #1 08-06-2005, 02:57 AM

10 handed. Very LA in the BB. I have K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] UTG and raise. Another very solid 19/10 MP raises. Different guy though from my TA1 post. All fold I call

Flop: A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Check bet. I call planning on cr-ing a turn card of 10/Q or spade. I would call a J/K and lead bet the river but fold to his raise UI. I would check fold everything else.

Is this plan dumb? It is definitely not my standard MO but I thought I would give it a shot. Is it a better plan if he may check behind on the turn without an Ace in his hand? (however I don't know if he will)

Turn: 10 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] I check raise and he calls.

River: 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] I bet he raises, I 3bet and he 4 bets as the vision of AsQs instantly burns my retina. I call praying he has a set.

steveyz · #2 08-06-2005, 04:32 AM

Just fold the flop unless you think you can really get him to laydown a big PP here a decent % of the time, which I think the chances of are slim.

drbk2 · #3 08-06-2005, 10:37 AM

I'm done with this hand on the flop. I really don't see the purpose of your turn plan. If he doesn't have an ace, he's going to check behind on the turn and pay off any river. If he has an ace, he likely has a very good ace or even a set of aces and he will never fold that. So you are basically caling a flop bet to make a runner runner hand, which is never a good play.

flawless_victory · #4 08-06-2005, 12:41 PM

just fold the flop. this guy is tight and threebet your UTG raise. you will not get him off the best hand here, like, evver.
the river, just call the raise.

TStoneMBD · #5 08-06-2005, 01:52 PM

spew

fold instead

Robb · #6 08-06-2005, 03:03 PM

I don't really disagree with the spew comments because I would probably reply the same way to another poster. After the hand I felt like a complete lag.

After I was 3-bet preflop the check-raise turn thought occurred to me because my opponents were often folding the turn in this session when I showed strength. And honestly, I try to put meta-game plays out of my head because they aren't nearly as valuable against online players as live players (who you may play against frequently) or a higher-limit online game where you would run into a player often enough for it to make a decent difference. The meta-game consequence I was contemplating: not always having an ace in my hand when I check-raise the turn with an ace on board.

However, recently my MO is to check-raise most flops with an ace at 30-60 because people will often pay off with a mid-pair but foil a turn check-raise by checking through. Given that ....even less of a reason to worry about meta-game if I don't employ the damn play very often (Ace turn check-raise) that I'm trying to protect.

Anyway....

[ QUOTE ]
10 handed. Very LA in the BB. I have K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] UTG and raise. Another very solid 19/10 MP raises. Different guy though from my TA1 post. All fold I call

Flop: A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Check bet. I call planning on cr-ing a turn card of 10/Q or spade. I would call a J/K and lead bet the river but fold to his raise UI. I would check fold everything else.

Is this plan dumb? It is definitely not my standard MO but I thought I would give it a shot. Is it a better plan if he may check behind on the turn without an Ace in his hand? (however I don't know if he will)

Turn: 10 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] I check raise and he calls.

River: 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] I bet he raises, I 3bet and he 4 bets as the vision of AsQs instantly burns my retina. I call praying he has a set.

[/ QUOTE ]

I called his four-bet and mhig. He had a set of A's. So when your buddy tops the ball in the fairway and rolls it up to within 2 feet of the pin, you say "Now that's a golf shot!" and roll your eyes.

TStoneMBD · #7 08-06-2005, 03:58 PM

more interesting imo is id like to hear what people have to say about this guys turn smoothcall. i think thats a really bad play. anyone else?

pfkaok · #8 08-06-2005, 06:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]

more interesting imo is id like to hear what people have to say about this guys turn smoothcall. i think thats a really bad play. anyone else?

[/ QUOTE ]

Awful I think. if you have AA here, you have to 3 bet, since his CR is likely a pretty big hand, maybe smaller set or 2 pair, and possibly it can get capped. AA basically is the nuts at that point, and there's almost no chance the player will CR then fold to a 3bet. so you'd certainly get more value by raising the turn. I don't see how by only calling the turn you can plan to get more than the 1 extra bet on the river that you're losing out on. plus, if another spade, or face card comes on the river it might slow villian down even more, unless of course it gives him a hand that beats you.

pfkaok · #9 08-06-2005, 06:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
However, recently my MO is to check-raise most flops with an ace at 30-60 because people will often pay off with a mid-pair but foil a turn check-raise by checking through. Given that ....even less of a reason to worry about meta-game if I don't employ the damn play very often (Ace turn check-raise) that I'm trying to protect.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then that makes this attempted CR bluff/semibluff just horrible... if he's only betting this turn with AK (maybe AQ), then NO WAY is he going to fold.

For it to be +EV, he'd have to bet just about every time with underpairs, and fold just about everytime with an underpair when you CR him. both of those things aren't very realistic.