Is Poker Zero-Sum?

[LinusKS]

Poker is often referred to as a zero-sum game.

But there situations where poker seems to violate zero-sum theory - particularly in tournament play - so I wonder if that's really the case.

One example is the bubble situation, with a maniac on board.

Morton's Theory may be another example. The theory says - as I understand it - that the unintentional cooperative effect of multiple opponents playing poorly costs better players money. In other words, the sum of all those mistakes = correct play.

Another example might be when two medium stacks check down when a short stack is all-in. The sum of this cooperative play - on average - might be better than when each of them simply pursues his own self-interest.

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
Poker is often referred to as a zero-sum game.

But there situations where poker seems to violate zero-sum theory - particularly in tournament play - so I wonder if that's really the case.

One example is the bubble situation, with a maniac on board.

Morton's Theory may be another example. The theory says - as I understand it - that the unintentional cooperative effect of multiple opponents playing poorly costs better players money. In other words, the sum of all those mistakes = correct play.

Another example might be when two medium stacks check down when a short stack is all-in. The sum of this cooperative play - on average - might be better than when each of them simply pursues his own self-interest.

[/ QUOTE ]

Define "zero-sum game".

eastbay

[mackthefork]

[ QUOTE ]
Define "zero-sum game".

[/ QUOTE ]

A type of game wherein one player can gain only at the expense of another player.


Regards Mack

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Define "zero-sum game".

[/ QUOTE ]

A type of game wherein one player can gain only at the expense of another player.


Regards Mack

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see what's not zero-sum about all the posted examples, then.

I think the OP is reading something into zero-sum that isn't there.

eastbay

[Desdia72]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Define "zero-sum game".

[/ QUOTE ]

A type of game wherein one player can gain only at the expense of another player.


Regards Mack

[/ QUOTE ]

that sounds like all competition driven sports. you don't need THEORIES to come to these conclusions, only commonsense.

*sidenote- mack this post is not directed at you, personally, i'm just responding to the THEORY aspect of it.
i find alot of theories of poker are simply commonsense conclusions that anybody with playing experience can come to
without attaching theorhetic mumbo-jumbo.*

[CrisBrown]

Hi Linus,

Unless you're playing a home game with no seat charge and no rake, poker is actually a negative sum game. A zero sum game is one in which the amount to be won is limited by the participants' investment (or some arbitrary rule), and thus any gain made by one player will be offset by a loss to the other player(s).

Cardroom poker -- online or B/M -- is a negative sum game due to the rake (or seat charge). That is, some portion of the players' original investment is pocketed by the house, so the net sum won will be less than the net sum lost.

A simple example: 10 players sit down at a 20+2 SNG. A total of $220 has been paid (lost), but only $200 remains to be won.

Cris

[mackthefork]

[ QUOTE ]
i find alot of theories of poker are simply commonsense conclusions that anybody with playing experience can come to
without attaching theorhetic mumbo-jumbo.*

[/ QUOTE ]

In the main this is probably true, however in my life it has come to my attention that 90% of folk have no commonsense. Also one sentence can describe a whole book, but until you look beneath the surface you cannot see how deep the water is.

Regards Mack