Question on protecting sets: Advice on theory needed

[Crispy]

Hand that got just reviewed, by my question is about these kind of hands in general.

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, 5 folds, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (8.40 SB) J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (7.20 BB) 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

River: (10.20 BB) T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero calls, UTG folds.

Final Pot: 12.20 BB

Ok, ur sitting at MP1 and you look down at your favorite women. QQ, of course being a premium hand you raise it up, getting value for your beloved friends. Now down comes this flop and a set of dilemmas opens up for you. You think f#@!, hit my set but look at the straight and flush draw potentials on the board. You find UTG bets and UTG+1 calls, now you think no way gotta protect and raise. Turn comes a blank you bet, etc... In the end however you get sucked out on by a donk. Now, was there anyway to avoid this? Or even possibly get more value for your set?

Possibly..Lets say you had just called the flop bet, knowing that UTG was a LAG and would bet again. Would this be correct? I like to think it has its benefits and downfalls. You are making those flush and straight cards pay for that turn card, but you are in no way removing them from the hand, your cards are still in danger. So you call the flop bet, and you find UTG betting again. Of course UTG+1 being a donk calls, now you think to yourself, I know I won't be able to remove them from the hand, but I am sure as hell getting the maximum from these guys and you raise it. Now you make anybody on those gutshot and flush draws pay the premium for playing with you. In addition, if a heart comes on the river, or that damned 10 comes down, you may even find your opponents willing to check it to you with plans to C/R and you can just check it down behind them. You were calling the river anyway, but now you have not only payed the same as in the original hand, but you find that if another blank had come on the river, you are up another 2 BB.
Now for the question? Is this a good strategy? Do you get the maximum for your money? I am trying as hard as I can to learn what I can from Sklansky's books and I think he applies this strategy to many of his similar high pairs. Please give me your thoughts pros.. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[QTip]

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now you think no way gotta protect and raise.

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I don't think this. I never think protect when I flop a set. I think value and raise.

[Crispy]

Ok, but value and protection go hand in hand a lot of the time.

[thejameser]

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now you think no way gotta protect and raise.

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I don't think this. I never think protect when I flop a set. I think value and raise.

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correct. you are being to "results oriented"(i hate that phrase). let this hand go(you are dwelling). your pf, flop, and turn equity advantages assure that you will profit from this same scenario many times in the future, just understand sometimes you get drawn out on.

[sy_or_bust]

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Ok, but value and protection go hand in hand a lot of the time.

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Not really. Protection usually implies a loss of value (i.e. you have the best hand and want weak draws to fold instead of chasing). Many times you can't protect, or you simply shouldn't. This is one. You probably have the best hand, with many outs to a boat or better. You want to raise this flop so that kings, tens, 2-pairs, etc. pay to draw when you are the equity favorite. Waiting to the turn to raise is dubious (even though, if accomplished, it would "protect") because 1) UTG won't bet a draw again 2) Flushes won't fold 3) better hands nail you 4) everyone gets to see the turn cheaply. Think value in these situations.

[SeaEagle]

Generally speaking, the only time you want to wait till the turn to pump your set is when you can get more chips in the pot by waiting.

In the hand in question, there is no line that will make a flush draw fold. There's probably no line that will make a pair and a gutshot fold. The guy who won this hand didn't know that he only had 4 outs. He probably gave himself 2 outs for another J and maybe even as much as 1.5 outs for the remaining Ks.

Since you can't get them to fold, protecting your hand is meaningless; what matters is charging them the most you can while they're behind. In this hand, you already have two callers, so a flop raise is going to get you at least another 2sbs, and you might get 3-bet or BB might call too. If you wait for the turn, you might not get to raise (or even bet) at all. And if you do, you may only get one caller. Both of those scenarios are no better, and maybe worse, than raising the flop.

If your position was immediately following the bettor and the flop were less coordinated, I could see waiting for the turn. But not in this case.