Did I Just Have A Limit Holdem Epiphany?

[PokerProdigy]

Alright, so first I am going to give you guys a little bit of background about me, so you'll be better able to give me some feedback. I am 20 years old and I have been playing poker and reading a lot of poker since I was 18. I have mostly just tried to stay focused on learning the game of holdem (both limit and no-limit) but I also read up a bit about other games just to improve my overall poker knowledge, such as, 7 card stud, omaha high-low split 8 or better, 7 card stud high-low 8 or better, and general poker theory. I would eventually like to be very proficient at all games, but first I just want to master the game of holdem. Especially, I want to master the game of limit holdem cash-games (internet and live). The only problem is that I always seem to lose money while I am playing limit holdem cash-games. The majority of my time playing in these games is done at $2/4 games while 4 tabling on the internet. Basically, I want to start off being able to beat the low limit stuff and then move into beating the middle-high limit stuff. Now over the past couple months I have became pretty good at small buy in ($10+1 and $20+2) no-limit holdem single table tournaments. But whenever I jump back over to limit holdem cash games I seem to lose my money. The most frusturating part is that I am not sure where I am going wrong because I feel like I have a good grip on the game. I understand pot odds, EV, etc... I play tight and aggressive and I also follow tight preflop guidelines. But even with all this understanding of these things I STILL LOSE MONEY.

However, I think I may have final figured out what my problem is and I want you guys to tell me whether or not you think this is it. My problem (I think) is that I am playing 4 tables and therefore, I cannot understand what types of players my opponents are. I also DO NOT have any of the programs/software which keeps track of these things for me. It seems to me that one of the most important strategies in cash games, is to understand the way your opponent plays, and then to be able to make adjustments based on that. Furthermore, it seems that most of the money in limit holdem comes from understanding whether marginal situations are profitable or unprofitable, and it seems to me that this would rely heavily on the players who are in the hand with you. Atleast one should have a general idea of the opposition, such as, tight passive, tight aggressive, loose passive, and loose aggressive. Another thing is that there are many players who understand the math very well, who still are very marginal winners. Yet someone who can read opponents and understand opponents seems to be able to become a big winner. For example, even Jennifer Harmon says/admits that she doesn't understand the math that well and that she just "goes off feel" and she is one of the biggest cash game winners in limit holdem.

Ok, so I realize this post was a little long and consisted of me rambling a bit, but I am just trying to figure out if this is what winning at limit holdem cash games is all about, which is getting to know your opponents and making proper adjustments. I feel like I already have a good understanding of basic strategy, poker math, etc... and yet, I am still a losing limit holdem player in cash games. And I definitely feel like I have a better understanding of the basic strategy, poker math, etc... then 90% or more of the $2/4 players online, and yet I am still losing. This makes me think that I need to get the software/programs which track my opponents and in live games I need to pay more attention. I feel like my previous knowledge has eliminated any major leaks in my game, but in order to be a winner I'll need to start playing my game according to the way my opponents play there game. What do you think?

Also, feel free to offer any questions, comments, advice, opinions, information, tips, etc... on this topic/post.

P.S. I am posting this in multiple forums so don't get upset if you see/read it all over the place. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[MrWookie47]

I hate to break it to you dude, but this is a tough love forum. If you are playing good poker, you should be more than able to beat 2/4 on autopilot without making any read-dependent plays. Therefore, you're almost certainly making a lot of mistakes. Winning limit hold em is about the math and about inducing mistakes from your opponents. Not reading your opponents is a good scapegoat to save your ego from having to face the facts that you're not very good at LHE, but you should be blaming variance long before you should be blaming reads. If you want to get better at LHE, respond to the posts in here without reading any other responses. Anyone have the link to GrunchCan's challenge handy? I'm too lazy to dig it up.

Getting PT is great. You'll be better able to track and review your play. Getting a HUD is far from essential. It can be nice, but the reads you want most are plays, not stats. Neither of these will turn you into a winning player over night. Everyone wants the panacea. No software package can offer that. Learn to play good poker. You've come to the right place to start.

You shouldnt need reads to be a winner at 2/4 limit (im assuming fullring?)

A few points though:

1. Try playing one table at a time til you have given yourself the confidence to KNOW you can beat the limit. Then take in another table one by one. Often you can miss things multitabling even without accepting it.

2. Whats your sample size so far? Poker is a game of constant swings, there is a good chance that you simply have been in a downswing (bad luck)

3. If you really want to improve your game, books and maths are just the beginning. Post hands you are unsure about here, and most importantly get pokertracker and give us a look at your stats.

Oh and dont worry it gets easier =)

Everyone's had some great advice so far, but one thing to add to that is that you should probably move down if you can't beat 2/4. Maybe even go as low as .5/1 and get comfortable with the cash games (you seem less confident with cash games).

The other major point, that has already been mentioned, is that maybe you are beating 2/4 and simply are on a downswing. Totally possible. We obviously can't comment on this to any degree without knowing your sample size (and without PT, you may not even have any idea of your sample size).

I know you mentioned that you've read many books, but make sure that one of those books is Small Stakes Hold 'Em by Ed Miller. You'll find that to be the base by which small stakes cash players here derive their game.

- thing85 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

[stlip]

Speaking as someone who sticks to 2-tabling because the quality of my reads drops off so dramatically if I go up to 3 I think you are on the right track.

I also think you should not waste another hour without PokerTracker and PokerAce or one of the other displays that put all the relevant stats on your opponents right next to them at the table.

But the most important thing about PokerTracker is the ability to put your own game under a microscope. I used to make a living in California card rooms when I was in college -- 30 years ago -- so I came to online poker with a huge amount of experience and a reasonably well-tuned game. PokerTracker (and these forums) helped me step it up a couple more notches.

[POKhER]

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I hate to break it to you dude, but this is a tough love forum. If you are playing good poker, you should be more than able to beat 2/4 on autopilot without making any read-dependent plays.

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Thats a breath of freshair.

So if you sucked at reading and played good poker you can still profit?

What if we play only with pot odds/Implied/Equity?

I wondered this as when im clearing paradise my reading skills are slowly getting there but with PT/GT+ im often in situations where reads would help alot.(knowing if against a fish on first few orbits or tag/Tap/TPA/TPP?

Currently down 13BB i wondered if im goign to constantly lose without reads and how important they are.

Does "Good play" mean knowing many lines?WA/WB, when to call down etc?

Or does good play consist of a complete newbie learning Pot odds/Implied/Outs/Equity?

What knowledge turns play into good play in your opinion?

[benkath1]

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So if you sucked at reading and played good poker you can still profit?

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Kind of hard to do one without the other, if by reading you mean reading hands.

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What if we play only with pot odds/Implied/Equity?


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I'd say that is 95% of what we do here. Yeah reads help, but at least through 2/4, most players are not paying attention to you, so if you halfway know what kind of player they are your 2 steps ahead.

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Currently down 13BB i wondered if im goign to constantly lose without reads and how important they are.

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13BB? If you are playing the micros at paradise, you shouldn't have any problem at all. ABC should clear that bonus nicely.

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Does "Good play" mean knowing many lines?WA/WB, when to call down etc?

Or does good play consist of a complete newbie learning Pot odds/Implied/Outs/Equity?


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Good play consists of a complete newbie learning Pot odds/Implied/Outs/Equity. Learning starting hands and position awareness is a plus too.

You're getting it man, just be patient. You will learn a lot from these forums, but you will learn a lot from experience too.

[MrWookie47]

Benkath made a lot of good points, but I want to add a couple.

Can you win at poker without trying to do any hand reading whatsoever? Maybe. Can you win if you always assume a somewhat loose, somewhat passive opponent and do your hand reading based on that? Absolutely.

As for lines, can you be a winning player without knowing WA/WB? Almost certainly. Situations where it applies come up infrequently, so any missed bets or additional losses constitute a small mistake. Can you win without other lines? Definitely. The "lines" that are discussed here are usually somewhat tricky plays to extract or save an extra bet in a specific HU situation. At the micros, few pots are HU before the turn, and then if it does happen to be HU, it's probably not one of the special situations that the "lines" were designed for.

Here are the things you must understand in order to be a winning player:

Preflop hand selection - know what to play and where to play it profitably.
Pot odds and outs - know how big the pot has to be to chase what.
Implied odds - know how big the pot WILL be to determine if you can chase.
Pot equity - know when you can pump strong draws for value, and when the probability of drawing out, the probability of having the best hand, and the size of the pot dictate a call down.
Betting and raising for value - Know when you're ahead often enough to extract more bets from your opponents. This should probably be higher on the list.
Knowing when to fold and when to call on the river with a hand that might be beaten - This relates to what I said about pot equity, but it bears saying again.

At least one of those things comes up every single time you play a hand, and you'll usually be forced to apply concepts from one or all of them. Since the magnitude of a mistake is directly proportional to the frequency with which it occurs, these concepts by far are the most important. There are a couple more concepts that warrant mentioning, however, even if they aren't quite as important as the above. They are:

Hand protection - know when to raise to protect, check/raise to protect, wait to raise to protect, and why, if you're protecting properly, you're usually rooting for your opponents to call, not fold.
Hand reading - Put your opponent on a narrowing range of hands and act accordingly. Even if you always assume a very broad range to start with, you'll be doing yourself quite a favor.

[Aaron W.]

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I understand pot odds, EV, etc... I play tight and aggressive and I also follow tight preflop guidelines. But even with all this understanding of these things I STILL LOSE MONEY.

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Wow... you listed two whole things that you know followed by an "etc".

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I feel like I already have a good understanding of basic strategy, poker math, etc...

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Trust me... you don't have a good understanding of basic strategy. If you did, you would be beating up on players who don't have a basic understanding, even without reads or PT stats.

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Yet someone who can read opponents and understand opponents seems to be able to become a big winner. For example, even Jennifer Harmon says/admits that she doesn't understand the math that well and that she just "goes off feel" and she is one of the biggest cash game winners in limit holdem.

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I hate to break it to you, but you are not Jennifer Harmon. Like any game of skill, you have only been endowed with a certain amount of natural intuition for the game. Just as in basketball, you cannot expect to make decisions like Michael Jordan by just playing the game for a couple years (forget all the of physical attributes you're lacking -- I'm just talking about things like court vision and play-making).

Donks like us need to come to at least a rudimentary knowledge of how the math works.

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Also, feel free to offer any questions, comments, advice, opinions, information, tips, etc... on this topic/post.

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Drop in stakes, play fewer tables, and STUDY HARD. This post from a long time ago (shamelessly by me) was the result of some careful evaluation of where I was at, and whether I was actually moving towards my desired goals. If you really want to make it, you've got to start treating this game like you would. Take it seriously and don't expect magical results just because you've read some books.

PS - I love basketball analogies.

[bosoxfan]

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panacea

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Good word. I had to look it up. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]