Served Him Right...?

[ML4L]

Hey all,

A friend of mine just told me about a hand that he played in a $30 Multi on Party last night. 1300 player field, top 130 paid, 75 remain at this point. His stack is T13000, which is about average. His opponent on this hand has him covered by a few thousand; no read on his play.

Blinds are 1000/2000. Folded to my friend in the SB, and he calls with T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. This is strikes me as an obvious mistake (someone correct me if I'm wrong...), but we can disregard that and focus on the flop play. BB checks. Flop comes:

A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

My friend moves all-in for his last 11000 into the 4000 pot. The BB called with A4o and his hand stood up.

What is the proper line of play on the flop?

ML4L

[curmudgeon]

Please explain why YOU would not complete the SB holding T9o. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Bet 1000 on the flop, or check & fold to any large bet. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[cferejohn]

Umm, if blinds are 1000/2000, the minimum bet is 2000.

I would call this from the SB. I might push in there if I thought the BB would lay down most hands (including weak aces and small pairs). Given the flop call with a weak ace, I'm not sure he would have though.

On the flop, I don't see the point to betting this big. Bet 2000 or 3000 and fold if he comes over the top. I wouldn't put any more money in unless you improve.

[James282]

Going all in here is certainly not the correct line. You give your opponent no chance to make a mistake. He will only call with an ace or better... I would either raise to steal or muck it preflop, totally dependent on the opponent.
-James

[James282]

Decent players will make this flop call also, since most people don't just push outright if they have a hand, heads up. I have busted a ton of people doing this with as little as middle pair.
-James

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Your friend had 6.5 BB in his stack. He's pretty much in all-in or fold mode here, and he'll be in deep do-do when the blinds go up.

Calling in the SB and pushing in on the flop isn't horrible here, but he's got 8 free looks coming up after this hand. I'd toss T9o here and see what I picked up with position on the next couple of deals.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

I'd complete here most of the time if I weren't in such dire chip position. As it stands, I don't like throwing chips in and seeing what flops. Too often, I'd just be wasting chips.

[Senor Choppy]

The call preflop depends on the level of aggression of your opponent. I would hate giving up 1/12 of my stack just to get mini-raised by the bb. Of course with a fairly passive opponent, calling preflop and betting out every flop might be a + EV play.

Postflop it's pretty tough to get away from. Against A4, he's going to win the hand slightly more than 1/3 of the time. If he bets the pot (4k) and is raised all-in, there's 19k out there and your friend has 7k left, he has to call. If he bets 2k and is raised all-in, there's 17k out there and your friend has 9k left, not quite enough to call unless he wants to gamble and hope to double up.

I think the important thing postflop is to bet whatever amount is most likely to win the pot outright, if he thinks overbetting is best, great. If half the pot is what he normally bets that would be fine too. Unless he bets 2k or less, he can't get away from this hand (and he should probably call even if betting 2k because he'd give himself a shot at moving from a below average stack to someone with good chip position with an only slightly -EV call).

[cferejohn]

[ QUOTE ]
Going all in here is certainly not the correct line. You give your opponent no chance to make a mistake. He will only call with an ace or better... I would either raise to steal or muck it preflop, totally dependent on the opponent.


[/ QUOTE ]

A couple problems I see with this. First of all "raise to steal" doesn't really work. There is no amount you can raise here (even a min raise) that doesn't pot-commit you. If you are going to raise you have to go all in.

Also, raising all-in gives your opponent *plenty* of opportunity to make a mistake. If he folds weak aces, small pairs, any two broadway cards, or any J, Q, or K, he is making a mistake. If you think your opponent will call with *all* of those hands than pushing is definitely a mistake. The more of those hands he will fold, the better pushing becomes.

[ML4L]

Hey all,

Thanks for the responses. Here's my take on the hand:

Preflop: Some people mentioned it, but my thought process is that putting in 1/12 of your stack to play, heads-up and out of position, a hand that will flop nothing 1/2 of the time, a crappy pair with a crappy kicker 1/3 of the time, and a draw 1/6 of the time is unwise, especially because a typical opponent is going to raise here preflop some percentage of the time and you're not even going to get to see a flop. So that's that.

Regarding the flop play, my first instinct was that moving all-in here was probably the correct play. Since he did not raise preflop, his chances of having an ace (or even a jack, for that matter) are reduced, IMO. And if he has a jack or an eight, many opponents would fold here rather than gamble. And, even if he is called and behind, he's got a good draw.

But, in thinking about it more, the fact that there is almost no money in the pot, he is in decent chip position, and will see the next eight hands for free makes me feel like this might not be the best place to gamble the entire stack by betting out...

What about betting the minimum? Seems OK, it's a good flop to semi-bluff on, as mentioned above. But, the problem that I see with this is that your chances of winning the pot right there probably decline and you're in a tough spot if raised.

This is why I've settled on a check as the play that I would make. If he checks it back, you have eight outs for free and could even consider betting out the turn. If he makes a sizeable bet, just let it go. But, and here is the real thing that I wanted peoples' take on, what about a check-raise if BB bets small (say 2000 or 3000)? The pot is now big enough to make a play at, you're going to win about 1/3 of the time that you're called, and it is very possible that the BB is bluffing. And, I think that the bet that he would be facing would be large enough that he will not call with significantly more hands than had you led into him all-in. What do others think of this logic?

ML4L