Precarious O8 flopped nut straight hands.

[dibbs]

After searching through some older O8 posts I have read how players often don't know how to treat precarious flopped nut straights, and well I don't either, seemed the consensus was they should be played pretty hard on the flop however. I'm still unsure of this as I am used to being able to bet big to protect hands.

Here's two hands with the flopped nuts, both out of position, the first obviously being a battle to scoop, the second I imagine there was a low draw or two out there. Any thoughts on play or this idea in general would be greatly appreciated.

Both played on Party .5/1$, typical players.


A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] in Sb. Four players see flop.

Flop: (4 SB) J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
I check, two more checks to LP who bets. I raise , two in middle fold and he calls.

Turn: (4 BB)Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].......

I checkraised the flop in hopes I could at least isolate whoever I was drawing against. I was pretty sure someone would bet this, but should I lead here so no one
draws for free? Check fold the turn?


Second hand....


7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. in BB
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (7 SB) 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (7 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB bets.....

Easy laydown right?
Was I correct to lead on the flop? Do you want to push with whats most likely a slight edge here even though you know you're going to get called by at least one player, most likely a few?

After seeing these hands and ones similar to it, I'm currently at the state where I'll push my small edge on the flop as hard as I'm able to, then drop as soon as I'm pretty sure my hand is dead, an appropriate way to think about these things?

Dibbs.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
After searching through some older O8 posts I have read how players often don't know how to treat precarious flopped nut straights, and well I don't either, seemed the consensus was they should be played pretty hard on the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

Dibbs - Flopped straights are notorious for not standing up.

However, notice there is a big difference between a flopped ace high straight and a flopped nine high straight. Notice also there is a difference between a flopped ace high straight with a rainbow flop and a flopped ace high straight with two cards to a flush.

Because of these differences, and because of differences between groups of opponents, all flopped straights are not optimally played the same.

First hand: Flopped Broadway (ace high straight) with two clubs. I'd bet this one. As you suggest, I wouldn't want anyone getting a free draw. You neither want to see a club on the turn nor do you want the board to pair. As it turns out, the turn is a club and you find yourself one-on-one and out of position. Ugh. Not a good place to be. If you think you can get away with it, bet, just as though you have the flush. Of course you hope you won't get called. But if you do get called, generally check/call on the river. If raised, what to do depends on your opponent.

Second hand: Flopped nine-high straight. Ugh. This one is really garbage. If there is any doubt in your mind, take a deck of cards and pull out your hand and the flop. Then make three piles of cards for the turn from the cards remaining in the stub: (1) cards you'd like to see on the turn, (2) neutral cards, and (3) cards you wouldn't like to see on the turn. Almost all the remaining cards in the stub will end up in stack #3 (cards you wouldn't like to see on the turn). Only the aces go into stack #1 (cards you'd like to see on the turn). Kings and fours are neutral on the turn - but after a king or a four on the turn, you have to sweat the river.

You should see all this coming when you flop a nine high nut straight. What can you do about it?

For starters, don't bet the turn unless you think your bet will take the pot. Don't invest any more money on this hand/flop/turn unless you think your bet will knock out all your opponents - and that's simply unrealistic in a low limit game.

Thus you should check and hope for one of those miracles where nobody else wants to bet either. If the miracle is not forthcoming, fold to a bet without letting any of your opponents know you have folded the flopped nut straight. In truth, it's unplayable unless you also have the nut low or the nut low draw - or at least the second nut low plus good antennae that sense no nut low in the hands of an opponent.

I realize that doesn't sound very courageous but the bugle call for a flopped nine high straight is "retreat."

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[FeliciaLee]

With flopped straights, how I decide to play them is based on my number of redraws. If I have no redraws, I'm not going to push them hard if they are fragile and I'm outdrawn. Low limit O8 is so much about redraws.

In your first hand, I probably wouldn't have even seen the flop. Yeah, I'm tight, but I tend to think in terms of how many best I'm going to waste if I end up with the 2nd best hand, lol. Also, I might not have even been in that game, with only four seeing the flop. I tend to look for games where 60%+ are seeing the flop.

In the first hand, had I seen the flop, I probably just would have bet right out on it, then folded the turn, if I was certain he was going for the flush. HU I tend to call down more non-nut hands, but in your situation, you read him for that flush draw, maybe with other redraws that you didn't have.

The second hand doesn't even need any comment, because you seem to know when you're outdrawn with no problem. A great advantage in O8!

Felicia [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[dibbs]

Thanks for the responses guys.

On the broadway straight hand I led the turn trying to rep
a big straight flush draw but he immediatly raised me, and seeing how he bet when checked to in last position (possibly trying to buy a shorthanded pot but with backup draws if called), just called my raise then got aggressive on the turn, I felt fine folding it. In the future however betting out on the flop and taking it from there seems better.

And after thinking about the 9 high straight, I think I'll save a small bet and not even fire at the flop. With the low and straight draws out, theres no way I could get enough players (in this game anyways) to fold and not fear the impending groan on the turn or river brought by about every card in the deck.

I've quickly come to realize I prefer drawing to the nuts in position with lots of players in front of me, than defending the current nuts with lots of players behind me.

Dibbs