common but important situation

[Steve Giufre]

Just played this hand, it got me thinking a little. Party 15-30. Im in SB with Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Button raises which is just what he does when it is folded to him. Id say he is a typical internet player, a little bit on the loose aggro side.

Flop:9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I bet and get called, which I have to believe he will do with a lot of his holdings here, both when he has a pair and when he doesnt.

Turn: 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I bet, he raises I muck.


Anybody play there turn any different? I'm starting to thnik being out of position is just too much of a disadvange to three bet this hand here. I almost think calling is better with a loose player in BB. Any thoughts about the preflop three bet and the turn play? I had just seen him get out of line on the turn with no pair the hand before and I was really tempted to three bet him. I hate checking the turn here since I cant win a showdown, but I feel like I spewed a few chips too...

[roy_miami]

Did you 3-bet or call preflop?

My standard re-steal play is a check raise on the flop and lead the turn. I save the old bet out for my bigger hands. If he calls or raises the turn your usually in deep doo doo, it works often enough in my games to be profitable though.

[Steve Giufre]

nm

[Steve Giufre]

[ QUOTE ]
Did you 3-bet or call preflop?

My standard re-steal play is a check raise on the flop and lead the turn. I save the old bet out for my bigger hands. If he calls or raises the turn your usually in deep doo doo, it works often enough in my games to be profitable though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im assuming the fact that I left out what I did preflop made it difficult for you to answer. Now that you know I three bet do you still checkraise the flop here? Im more likely to lead out after the preflop three bet. Had I decided to smooth call preflop, my default would probably be check fold.

[elindauer]

As with all heads up situations, the answer is highly player dependent. As a default play though, this is about the only way to go if you choose to get involved. Don't get involved unless you believe there is a decent chance you can win without a showdown.

Good luck.
Eric

[bicyclekick]

QJs is a hand I just call out of the SB with in this situation.

[LarsVegas]

We all get these thoughts sometimes when we go through a barren spell of three-betting marginal hands from the SB vs a button raise. Whether it's better to cold-call or even fold a few more hands. I think it's not. All poker players experience barren spells in all aspects of the game, be it missing 15 flopped flush draw on a row or something else.

Granted, QJs represents just about the weakest made hand value you will three-bet from the small blind vs a button raise when you don't hit anything to your hand. This may make it look "very exposed" when you are stood there at turn, facing a raise with Q high and no draw. On the other hand, QJs will FREQUENTLY make something that can stand some action on the turn, be it a high pair or a good draw. Three-betting a hand such A5o is much harder in that aspect, although then you are secured at least A high the whole way. And I still think even that can be correct in a 10-15 blind structure with an averagely-to-above averagely aggressive button raisor.

I mean, if you threebet AA-66, AK-AT, Ax suited, KQ, KJ, KQ-K9s and QJ-QTs, you average holding on the turn will be a LOT stronger than Q high, no draw. So if he wants to raise you on the turn every time, let him be your guest.

lars

[LarsVegas]

I am surprised by this. Elindauer seems to have got it right: "I don't play this unless I think it's a decent chance I can win it without a showdown".

I must admit I have smooth-called a fair amount of similar hands in the SB in the face of a button raise. My default play is it check-fold a missed flop. Christ, having played it that way even T-8-x with a wrong twosuit seems very, very close to a check-fold. I cannot see in which way I can profitably start to put chips in on a flop like 9-7-2 or K-K-4 having only smoothcalled preflop.

[Paluka]

I think with a loose/bad player in the big blind calling is much better than re-raising. Your hand plays well multiway, and the button is a lot less likely to keep pushing his hand now if he tried to steal with complete trash.

[Steve Giufre]

[ QUOTE ]
I am surprised by this. Elindauer seems to have got it right: "I don't play this unless I think it's a decent chance I can win it without a showdown".

I must admit I have smooth-called a fair amount of similar hands in the SB in the face of a button raise. My default play is it check-fold a missed flop. Christ, having played it that way even T-8-x with a wrong twosuit seems very, very close to a check-fold. I cannot see in which way I can profitably start to put chips in on a flop like 9-7-2 or K-K-4 having only smoothcalled preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. The problem is that the button is so used to the LAGs in that game pushing no pair when they defend agaist a button raise, that they will call down ace more often than not, and sometimes make a move with a hand that doesnt have showdown value. When I do smoothcall preflop from this spot, Im really unlikely to start pushing no pair draw, although I dont think that is what Bike is suggesting.

On the other hand, I usually feel obligated to go ahead and bet the turn again when I know I probably wont win a showdown after I do three bet. The problem is that I think the button will call the flop with such a wide range of hands, its tough to not fire again because its such a common spot to float. I think I would be a lot more likely to check AK there than I would QJ agaist an aggresive player on the button who is gonna try to win the pot with or without a hand a lot of the time.