Wait till the turn

QTip · #1 07-07-2005, 01:08 PM

I know this is misapplied a lot, but I don't think it was here. What do you think?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB bets, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB bets, UTG+1 folds, MP2 calls, Hero raises

Entity · #2 07-07-2005, 01:14 PM

It depends a lot on two things.

1) How often he'll lead with a worse Queen or a [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] draw on the turn ([img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], rarely -- worse Queen, often).

2) How often the callers will call the turn drawing slim.

I'd often raise the flop here but it's not imperative.

Also, it's not a big deal but you don't have to raise this preflop.

Rob

axioma · #3 07-07-2005, 01:15 PM

uhh, im not sure i like ANY street there.

QTip · #4 07-07-2005, 01:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It depends a lot on two things.

1) How often he'll lead with a worse Queen or a [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] draw on the turn ([img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], rarely -- worse Queen, often).

2) How often the callers will call the turn drawing slim.

I'd often raise the flop here but it's not imperative.

Also, it's not a big deal but you don't have to raise this preflop.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the bill fit for both of your descriptions.

Also, both of the limpers were loose and weak. I raise offsuit broadays (no matter the gap) about every time there.

jskills · #5 07-07-2005, 01:49 PM

Ok. I don't find myself raising with this hand preflop unless first in and in late position. I see why you're doing it though.

On the flop, I find myself almost always raising here. Two spades on the board make me uncomfortable, but maybe a raise here serves little purpose, since everyone is going to call anyway.

On a non-spade, non-pairing the board card on the turn, I can see the raise for sure. You have to just hope BB wasn't betting his 8 to begin with. I have trouble putting people in the blinds on specific hands sometimes. They could have just about anything, although your preflop raise does limit his range somewhat [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I guess your plan is to fold to a 3-bet on the turn?

Entity · #6 07-07-2005, 02:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It depends a lot on two things.

1) How often he'll lead with a worse Queen or a [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] draw on the turn ([img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], rarely -- worse Queen, often).

2) How often the callers will call the turn drawing slim.

I'd often raise the flop here but it's not imperative.

Also, it's not a big deal but you don't have to raise this preflop.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the bill fit for both of your descriptions.

Also, both of the limpers were loose and weak. I raise offsuit broadays (no matter the gap) about every time there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Define "weak" in the context you're using it here. Your equity edge here isn't huge here, you're up against loose players which generally decreases folding equity, and your hand doesn't play that much better 3-ways than 5-ways.

I'm not saying I don't raise here. I just don't think it's imperative, and I'd like to hear your thoughts on why you raise any broadway here any time.

Rob

McGahee · #7 07-07-2005, 02:08 PM

I must plead ignorance on this.
I thought the 'wait till turn' concept was generally reserved for when the bettor is on your right? If you're last to act, you cannot protect your hand. If it's a value raise, then why not push your edge on the flop?

Clarkmeister · #8 07-07-2005, 02:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I must plead ignorance on this.
I thought the 'wait till turn' concept was generally reserved for when the bettor is on your right? If you're last to act, you cannot protect your hand. If it's a value raise, then why not push your edge on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because you can trap the field for two big bets instead of two small bets, all while your equity edge is significantly higher.

meep_42 · #9 07-07-2005, 02:23 PM

I don't raise pf, but I don't think it's much different (+ or -) than limping.

If BB is decently aggressive, I like the line. I assume you're taking a free showdown on a A,[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], and maybe a K?

-d

McGahee · #10 07-07-2005, 02:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I must plead ignorance on this.
I thought the 'wait till turn' concept was generally reserved for when the bettor is on your right? If you're last to act, you cannot protect your hand. If it's a value raise, then why not push your edge on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because you can trap the field for two big bets instead of two small bets, all while your equity edge is significantly higher.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cool - so this require a 'safe' turn card? And if so, why was the guy in this thread crucified?

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