In response to the "cheating comments" aboutn my post on my 6th palce

colos1 · #1 03-19-2004, 11:13 AM

I am writing this in resonse to the cheating comments made in my post about finishing 6th in a mult table tourney. I am writing this here cause I feel it would get lost in that see of threads and the cheating comments really bugged me.

Ok i have to respond to all these comnments about cheating becuase I was definately was not cheating. Not once during the entire toureny did I seek his advice, nor did he ever offer it to me. He was watching for the last 2 hours or so and anytime i got a hand like AA, KK AK i simply told him what i had. Not once did ever seek out ask for his advice, His advice came UNWANTED UNNEEDED AND DEFINATELY UNASKED FOR!!! and definately at the wrong time, which caused me to 2nd guess myself and fold the winning hand. I resent the fact that there are some people out there who think I was cheating.

I also agree with the poster on this board that generally folding Ak would have been the right move but you have to understand the table circumstances. The last 20 or 30 hands or so there weas not even a flop seen as the general routine on that table was to have someone go all in and everone else fold. Everyone was playing super cautious and super tight. As soon as there was an all in move everyone folded. This went on for I would say a good 30 hands or so.
I thought that after my raise the 2nd place chip leader was doing his normal all in routine and was trying to buy the pot and i wasn't worried about loosing to the other 2 all in caller because one went all in for 60K and the other all in for about 110K. So there was only one hand that i was worried about and that was the 2nd place chip leader who routinely went all in. If i lost to the other 2 all in callers the most I would have lost was 110k and I Believe that calling AK for 110k is definately and acceptable risk especially if you think the 2nd chip leader was trying to buy the pot as he did pretty much every other hand.

So now that you underatnad the table circumstances was folding Ak still the right move?

CrisBrown · #2 03-19-2004, 12:52 PM

Hi colos,

Even if you were soliciting advice, I don't think this is cheating. I was blessed to have two excellent mentors when I first began playing, friends with far more experience who would talk with me on the phone as I was playing, help me see my leaks, show me different ways to play a hand, etc.

Since then, I've helped a couple of my friends in much the same way. I don't sweat them every game they play, but perhaps once a week or so we'll be talking on the phone while they're playing, I'll help them in what small ways I can. Sometimes my advice helps them; sometimes not. After the game, we'll discuss key hands, different styles, reads, etc., as they try to learn this game.

As I see it, I'm returning the gift from my mentors by "paying it forward," and I hope my friends will in turn "pay it forward" and mentor someone else along the way.

Cris

TheGrifter · #3 03-19-2004, 01:13 PM

Cris,

Because most sites do not specifically prohibit this type of behavior, I can understand why you feel it is acceptable.

I model my behavior online after what I would feel is acceptable in a traditional B&M casino. Try showing your cards to the rail in a live game and then changing your actions based on someone elses advice and the floor will be called in an instant.

I think mentors are great in poker, they can really accelerate the learning process, but not WHILE the hand is going on. After a hand, or after a tournament it is fine to discuss strategy and play on different hands.

To me this situation would be the same as having someone help you with a chess move. Chess, and poker, are not team games. I think the sites SHOULD prohibit this behavior and I believe they do not simply because it would be unenforcable. That doesn't mean it is right.

Poker is a game played for money and decisions are often made based on the player involved, not knowing that there may be multiple players/personalities involved puts me at a distinct disadvantage. Again, this is just my opinion, I've been wrong before.

Grifter

Phishy McFish · #4 03-19-2004, 01:24 PM

I still feel this isn't cheating, assuming the other person isn't in the same game. It is different than in a live game....BECAUSE you having someone say "OH YEAH...Go ALL-IN with that!" can influence the other players at the table as well.

TheGrifter · #5 03-19-2004, 01:26 PM

What if in a live game UTG is all in and everyone has folded to your BB. Do you think nobody would object to a railbird looking at your card and saying "Yeah, push with that, you have him beat". This isn't celebrity poker.

CrisBrown · #6 03-19-2004, 02:03 PM

Hiya Grifter,

I can see your points. I'm not sure I agree, though.

Yes, if you have someone marked as a fish, but in fact he/she is getting help from an experienced player, you are at a temporary disadvantage. But that's only a temporary disadvantage, because you'll quickly read how that player is playing right now. "Hmmm ... maybe this used-to-be-fish has grown some teeth. I'd better be more careful."

And that's something we all need to be doing all the time anyway. Even poor players will go on short streaks where they are playing well -- perhaps they've finally read a few poker books, or just found this forum, or are just playing above themselves -- and if we don't adapt to that, we can get burned.

If it were a high-stakes game, obviously, this would be running a shill or ringer. But in a low-stakes game, where people are as likely to be playing for enjoyment as for the (very small) profits, I think mentoring is fine.

Cris

curmudgeon · #7 03-19-2004, 02:33 PM

So let see if I have this right.......
If its a $1 game its NOT cheating,
But in a $100 game it IS cheating. [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img][img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]
Just writing the above gives me a sick feeling, so check your gut here....

Sorry Cris, you really need some mentoring in logic and ethics. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Phishy McFish · #8 03-19-2004, 02:57 PM

Decent point......but you don't think people sit at a PC and play "together" .....again, I don't mean two people who both have a separate stack talking......I just think it is part of the online environment.

TheGrifter · #9 03-19-2004, 03:03 PM

They very well may, but I won't. As I said, it isn't explicitly forbidden so it won't get a person in trouble. But I think it hurts the integrity of the game a bit, and if someone mentions it in the chat (which I have seen many times) I'll probably find another table.

CrisBrown · #10 03-19-2004, 03:14 PM

Hi curmudgeon,

I disagree. There is a difference between Phil Hellmuth running a ringer in a $100/200 NL game at the Bellagio -- where the intent is to deceive other players and split the larger profit -- and helping a friend learn the game in a low-stakes situation.

If that distinction is lost on everyone, then oh well.

Cris