Am I Playing These Wrong???

shermn27 · #1 12-30-2005, 02:23 AM

Below are four hands I just played. I have recently gone from killing the 2/4 game to wanting to vomit evertime I finish playing. Are these just bad beats? Am I misplaying these. Should I play differently to make my opponents make mistakes? All advice appreciated.

Unfortunately, while I had reads on those at the table, I had relatively few reads on the ones I was involved with.

Hand 1
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $2.
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls, 2 folds, CO (poster) checks, Button calls, 1 fold, BB checks.

Flop: (5.50 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero bets, CO calls, Button calls, BB folds, UTG+2 calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG+2 checks, Hero bets, CO folds, Button folds, UTG+2 calls.

River: (6.75 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+2 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 8.75 BB

Hand 2
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, 6 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero raises, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 calls.

River: (6.25 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 8.25 BB

I am pretty sure I should have checked on 4th street here. As soon as I hit the bet button I thought he might have AJ and that I should have checked. Thoughts?

Hand 3
Okay so on this hand I did have a read on the button. He was a total maniac raising with almost anything at any given time.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Hero raises, 3 folds, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Button 3-bets, 2 folds, Hero caps, MP3 calls, Button calls.

Flop: (13.50 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, MP3 calls, Button raises, Hero calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (9.75 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, MP3 checks, Button bets, Hero folds, MP3 calls.

River: (11.75 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP3 bets, Button raises, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 15.75 BB

Hand 4
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (7 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises, 2 folds, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, Button raises, SB folds, BB folds, Hero 3-bets, Button calls.

Turn: (7 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

River: (9 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11 BB

Thanks for any feedback.

Shermn27

bravos1 · #2 12-30-2005, 02:39 AM

Sorry.. but I stopped reading after you did not 3 bet KK from the BB against only the PFR from UTG+1

shermn27 · #3 12-30-2005, 02:42 AM

Yes, I know this is an obvious mistake. Down many BB, and not thinking clearly, I chose to do the unthinkable and slowplay KK against one opponent in limit hold'em.

#4 12-30-2005, 02:59 AM

Grunch

Hand 1: OK

Hand 2: have to reraise w/KK and the rest of the hand plays differently after that.

Hand 3: I fold to the button's turn bet. I'm not even sure about betting the flop with UI overcards and no flush or str8 outs (but don't take my word on this, it's really beyond my skills to make this judgement correctly).

Hand 4 I don't know.

HighStakesPro · #5 12-30-2005, 03:10 AM

Hand #1 you played well, although a case could be made for raising on the river. The only two likely hands he ccould have that beat you are 33 and 44. This is a situation where observing your opponent helps. Sometimes players bet out of position into a bettor with surprisingly weak hands, and if you've seen him do that then you can raise him. However, calling is perfectly acceptable and if don't have a good read on your opponent then it's probably best.

Hand #2 can be played several different ways, but there's nothing wrong with the way you played it. Betting the turn is good because few players at that level are capable of raising with a worse hand thtan yours unless you happened to randomly catch them on tilt. On the river, checking is obviously correct in case he was slowplaying a straight, or just calling you with two pair, which he might now check.

Hand #3 I would have played differently, although it is likely that the result would have been the same. The main issue I have is that your play is inconsistent. If you're going to cap the flop and bet out, then you have to reraise to try and get the middle player to fold. However, I think you committ too much money this way. My preferred play is calling the preflop reraise (even though you probably have the best hand) and then checkraising the flop. If only the button calls (ideal), you can bet again on the turn and check-call on the river. If the button reraises and it's heads up, just call him down no matter what cards come. Remember, he could easily have a hand like KQ, QJ, or AT that you have dominated, and he'll probably bet anything. If you can't get the middle player out, you'll probably have to give the hand up. The goal in these situations is to get the pot heads up with the maniac, and this is best accomplished by just calling the preflop reraise (to keep the pot smaller) and then checkraise the flop, giving yourself the best chance of the pot getting heads up.

Hand #4 you played well, except you should have bet on the river. You can't worry about the backdoor flush possibility, and it's very unlikcly that he made trip threes on the river. He called a raise preflop and then raised your bet on the flop, and there are probably no hands with a single three in them that he would play that way. If anything, you might have outdrawn him if he had 87, 85, or 75.

I'm assuming that you lost the three hands that were shown down, and you probably would have lost a little more if you'd played them the way I suggested. That doesn't matter. Sometimes you will lose hands like that over the course of many sessions. A suggestion I can offer is to multi-table, say four 10-handed tables. I found this to be extremely helpful in minimizing the psychological damage that bad beats can have. If you get a bad beat on one table, you still have to concentrate on the other tables. It really helps to prevent you from playing badly when you get unlucky or start losing. Also, you usually won't know preceisly how much you are winning or losing at any given time, since you play more hands faster at multiple tables, so you don't subconsciously change your play because you know you're losing. Also, if you happen to get very unlucky at one table, or there are some players who call down every hand and annoy you because of their bad play, or whatever reason, you can just leave that table and sit in another one instead. Finally, it generally reduces your fluctuation because you effectively play four times as fast as normal.

HighStakesPro · #6 12-30-2005, 03:28 AM

This is simply not true. Playing KK the way you did is not "unthinkable" at all. Having just one opponent is the BEST time to slowplay big pairs in this situation. If you are against two or more opponents, you pretty much have to raise, but againnst an EP raiser, while raising is still a perfectly acceptable play, slowplaying can be very effective. It will become even more effective when you move up to higher limits. Plus, when an ace flops, you can just check and call and will actually fare better than if you had reraised preflop, because it will be much less obvious what your hand is. If your opponent has a lower pocket pair, he will continue to bet it because you have shown no strength and may just be drawing or calling on middle or bottom pair. Reraising is a safe play and can't be criticized, but if you want to really get to the next level, you should try and vary your play somewhat and employ deception. If you always make the same plays with the same hands, observant players will be able to put you on hands.

#7 12-30-2005, 03:36 AM

Downswings suck don't they?

Hand 1 - fine

Hand 2 - I 3 bet preflop here, the only reason not to is that you have a reason to believe that villian will overplay his hand b/c of your deception and give back more than the SB you're missing preflop, which I don't think happens often enough. You have to bet the turn, maybe he has AJ but you have the best hand most of the time

Hand 3 - If button is reall a maniac, use your position to force MP3 out of the hand. I likely just smooth call his 3 bet preflop, lead basically any flop, then when he raises 3 bet. MP3 is going to think you have a monster and is going to fold a lot of hands as he realizes that it is going to be very expensive to get to showdown. If button get's lucky so what. As played, if button is really a maniac, I c/r the turn for the same reasons. If button has a better hand so be it.

Hand 4 - I bet the river

shant · #8 12-30-2005, 03:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This is simply not true. Playing KK the way you did is not "unthinkable" at all. Having just one opponent is the BEST time to slowplay big pairs in this situation. If you are against two or more opponents, you pretty much have to raise, but againnst an EP raiser, while raising is still a perfectly acceptable play, slowplaying can be very effective. It will become even more effective when you move up to higher limits. Plus, when an ace flops, you can just check and call and will actually fare better than if you had reraised preflop, because it will be much less obvious what your hand is. If your opponent has a lower pocket pair, he will continue to bet it because you have shown no strength and may just be drawing or calling on middle or bottom pair. Reraising is a safe play and can't be criticized, but if you want to really get to the next level, you should try and vary your play somewhat and employ deception. If you always make the same plays with the same hands, observant players will be able to put you on hands.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is awful advice. Do you only reraise with KK? There's all the deception you need.

Edit: Just to elaborate a little more, there is a time to "slowplay" (I hate that word) big hands preflop, and it's usually when you have been 3-bet and capping will give away your hand. The problem with this is most times you are in this situation, your opponent will also have a strong hand that they'd like to go to war with. Also, as you move up in limits, you get into a lot more blind and HU wars and your capping range will be a lot wider, so it still doesn't say that much about your hand to cap.

The most important aspect of all this is VALUE and getting tricky often with these big pairs puts you in situations to lose it.

bravos1 · #9 12-30-2005, 03:46 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This is simply not true. Playing KK the way you did is not "unthinkable" at all. Having just one opponent is the BEST time to slowplay big pairs in this situation. If you are against two or more opponents, you pretty much have to raise, but againnst an EP raiser, while raising is still a perfectly acceptable play, slowplaying can be very effective. It will become even more effective when you move up to higher limits. Plus, when an ace flops, you can just check and call and will actually fare better than if you had reraised preflop, because it will be much less obvious what your hand is. If your opponent has a lower pocket pair, he will continue to bet it because you have shown no strength and may just be drawing or calling on middle or bottom pair. Reraising is a safe play and can't be criticized, but if you want to really get to the next level, you should try and vary your play somewhat and employ deception. If you always make the same plays with the same hands, observant players will be able to put you on hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

WEAK SAUCE!!!!
This is bad advice IMO and you are letting far too many hands here that you dominate off way to cheaply!

HighStakesPro · #10 12-30-2005, 04:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This is awful advice. Do you only reraise with KK? There's all the deception you need.

[/ QUOTE ]

Typical players reraise in this spot only with AA, KK, QQ, or maybe AK. This is a narrow enough range of hands to allow the preflop raiser to play his hand more profitably than if he had no idea what your hand was, which is the case when you just call. If the preflop raiser is from late position, THEN your reraise gives less away because you would do that with a wider variety of hands.

[ QUOTE ]
Edit: Just to elaborate a little more, there is a time to "slowplay" (I hate that word) big hands preflop, and it's usually when you have been 3-bet and capping will give away your hand. The problem with this is most times you are in this situation, your opponent will also have a strong hand that they'd like to go to war with. Also, as you move up in limits, you get into a lot more blind and HU wars and your capping range will be a lot wider, so it still doesn't say that much about your hand to cap.

[/ QUOTE ]

In the situation you describe, just calling a three-bet instead of capping, the situation is essentially the same (out of position against a preflop raiser heads up with a big pair), except you have already raised preflop and your opponent will be able to rule out hands like small pocket pairs, suited connectors, AXs, QJ/JT, and other such hands that people play from the blinds but don't raise preflop (unless you're talking about cutoff/button vs blinds play, which is a completely different story; I assume you're talking about a legitimate raise.)

Furthermore, while I can see why many people might disagree with my advice, I doubt that it is "awful" because Ciaffone and Brier suggest slowplaying in a similar situation in Middle Limit Holdem Poker on page 277, chapter 32, problem 10. The UTG player raised, you're on the button with AA, and the blinds look like they're about to fold. They say that "This is a perfect spot to slowplay preflop."

[ QUOTE ]
The most important aspect of all this is VALUE and getting tricky often with these big pairs puts you in situations to lose it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, value is important, but when you're only talking about one more small bet, it's probably worth it in this specific situation to call because the deception you are creating will often win you multiple small bets in the long run because you give away nothing about the strength of your hand. Plus, you can almost always go for the checkraise on the flop and get back the small bet you "lost" preflop. Yes, I agree that slowplaying like this in too many situations is a bad idea and will cost you value. If you had two or more opponents, or if your hand was QQ, reraising is probably better most of the time. But in some specific situations like this one, slowplaying can be very effective.

Edit: I accidentally referred to problem 8 in the book, but it is actually problem 10 that examines the situation I was talking about.